13 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

You're all arguing that the federal government can mandate passengers to be vaccinated.  They can, and nowhere have I said that they can't.  

But the airlines haven't even been able to agree on whether to mandate that their own pilots and flight crews get vaccinated (some have, some haven't).  The Federal government coming through and mandating that all passengers be vaccinated would potentially bar unvaccinated passengers from planes that are being flown and serviced by unvaccinated personnel. 

Likewise, the already decimated airline industry would only be able to service 47% of the country (those who are currently vaccinated)...cutting their existing their client base in half.  

Please explain to me how this would not induce legal challenges on both sides of this issue?

They are more than welcome to challenge it. But the federal government has the authority, and has used it in the past regularly, to stop individuals or groups of people from flying that represent a healthy and safety risk to others. That is one of the core mandates of the TSA. Arguing against it would be argue against the very existence/mission of the agency itself.

Just now, mayanh8 said:

They are more than welcome to challenge it. But the federal government has the authority, and has used it in the past regularly, to stop being from flying that represent a healthy and safety risk to everyone else in this country. That is the sole purpose of the TSA. Arguing against it would be argue against the very existence/mission of the agency itself.

Based on what?  Scientifically, your odds of catching Covid on an airplane are 1 in 4300 with the new air filters, mask mandates and cleaning regimens.  Your odds are much higher when going to the grocery store or a family gathering.  We already ask people if they are symptomatic prior to even coming to the airport and some airlines even go so far as to take temperatures prior to boarding.  This cannot be compared to bringing explosives or a firearm on the plane, and that would be an easy argument to overturn in court.  

Furthermore, the reason that @vikas83 and others brought this up was as a way to force the unvaccinated to comply.  The intent here isn't to keep people safe on airplanes, the intent is to force the unvaccinated to get vaccinated. 

The science does not support the premise of this being done for the purpose of passenger safety and therefore I think this would be challenged legally.  But according to you I don't understand anything about our laws or their precedent.  

24 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

You're all arguing that the federal government can mandate passengers to be vaccinated.  They can, and nowhere have I said that they can't.  

But the airlines haven't even been able to agree on whether to mandate that their own pilots and flight crews get vaccinated (some have, some haven't).  The Federal government coming through and mandating that all passengers be vaccinated would potentially bar unvaccinated passengers from planes that are being flown and serviced by unvaccinated personnel. 

Likewise, the already decimated airline industry would only be able to service 47% of the country (those who are currently vaccinated)...cutting their existing their client base in half.  

Please explain to me how this would not induce legal challenges on both sides of this issue?

The airlines charge double for fat people to buy a second seat. Maybe they need to charge unvaccinated people triple for their own row?  

4 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Based on what?  Scientifically, your odds of catching Covid on an airplane are 1 in 4300 with the new air filters, mask mandates and cleaning regimens.  Your odds are much higher when going to the grocery store or a family gathering.  We already ask people if they are symptomatic prior to even coming to the airport and some airlines even go so far as to take temperatures prior to boarding.  This cannot be compared to bringing explosives or a firearm on the plane, and that would be an easy argument to overturn in court.  

Furthermore, the reason that @vikas83 and others brought this up was as a way to force the unvaccinated to comply.  The intent here isn't to keep people safe on airplanes, the intent is to force the unvaccinated to get vaccinated. 

The science does not support the premise of this being done for the purpose of passenger safety and therefore I think this would be challenged legally.  But according to you I don't understand anything about our laws or their precedent.  

Source for the 1 in 4300 chance to catch covid on a plane?

1 minute ago, DBW said:

The airlines charge double for fat people to buy a second seat. Maybe they need to charge unvaccinated people triple for their own row?  

Much better solution.  Lump the anti vaxers in with the fatties. 

2 minutes ago, DBW said:

Source for the 1 in 4300 chance to catch covid on a plane?

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/odds-catching-covid-19-flight-wellness-scn/index.html

2 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Based on what?  Scientifically, your odds of catching Covid on an airplane are 1 in 4300 with the new air filters, mask mandates and cleaning regimens.  Your odds are much higher when going to the grocery store or a family gathering.  We already ask people if they are symptomatic prior to even coming to the airport and some airlines even go so far as to take temperatures prior to boarding.  This cannot be compared to bringing explosives or a firearm on the plane, and that would be an easy argument to overturn in court.  

Furthermore, the reason that @vikas83 and others brought this up was as a way to force the unvaccinated to comply.  The intent here isn't to keep people safe on airplanes, the intent is to force the unvaccinated to get vaccinated. 

The science does not support the premise of this being done for the purpose of passenger safety and therefore I think this would be challenged legally.  But according to you I don't understand anything about our laws or their precedent.  

The TSA doesn't exist or have the authority to enforce restrictions on grocery stores or family gatherings. So the entirety of your argument is meaningless and therefore completely irrelevant, from a legal standpoint.

Just now, mayanh8 said:

The TSA doesn't exist or have the authority to enforce restrictions on grocery stores or family gatherings. So the entirety of your argument is meaningless and therefore completely irrelevant, from a legal standpoint.

You just made my point

1 hour ago, Kz! said:

We are not in the same "party." Oh, and get over yourself. No one cares that you hold people on "your side" to the same standards as those you oppose in here. You can quit saying it

 

1 hour ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

You make us look bad.  Find another party please.  

Haha 2 triggered aholes in a battle to the death! Here's to hoping you both win!

3 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

You just made my point

No, I didn't.

8 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/odds-catching-covid-19-flight-wellness-scn/index.html

It’s a pretty cherry picked number there and hardly scientific.  It was based on a couple of flights where known transmission occurred and someone doing funny math to narrow it down to 2 hour flights in the US.  How many flights have you taken in your life where you’re on the plane for less than 2 hours?  Not many.  I suspect the odds are much greater when you expand that to even into the next tier of medium haul (3-6 hour) flights.  And probably a much higher odds when you go into 6 hour flights.  And this is all assuming 1 sick person on board.  What are the odds if say 1/3 have covid?  
 

sure many planes are equipped with newer air filtration. Are all of them? What are the odds of catching it if I’m on a plane with out dated systems?  
 

Again, very cherry picky with that estimation on the odds.  I won’t call it scientific until they can actually do the science, not cherry pick stats.

10 minutes ago, DBW said:

It’s a pretty cherry picked number there and hardly scientific.  It was based on a couple of flights where known transmission occurred and someone doing funny math to narrow it down to 2 hour flights in the US.  How many flights have you taken in your life where you’re on the plane for less than 2 hours?  Not many.  I suspect the odds are much greater when you expand that to even into the next tier of medium haul (3-6 hour) flights.  And probably a much higher odds when you go into 6 hour flights.  And this is all assuming 1 sick person on board.  What are the odds if say 1/3 have covid?  
 

sure many planes are equipped with newer air filtration. Are all of them? What are the odds of catching it if I’m on a plane with out dated systems?  
 

Again, very cherry picky with that estimation on the odds.  I won’t call it scientific until they can actually do the science, not cherry pick stats.

one flight there was US - Taiwan, more than 3 hours. 

the airplanes themselves cycle air frequently. generally they're not seen as a major source of spread, between the air being replaced entirely every few minutes and mask mandates as well as testing for most flights before you're allowed to board.

security lines and hanging about the airport seem like more likely places where you might catch something, but you can distance a bit.

Are we just going to gloss over the fact that Fauci should be in prison today?

Lock him up. 

 

 

6 prongs???  It must be from Europe.

4 minutes ago, Kz! said:

Are we just going to gloss over the fact that Fauci should be in prison today?

Lock him up. 

Come back with the evidence that we funded gain of function

4 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

one flight there was US - Taiwan, more than 3 hours. 

the airplanes themselves cycle air frequently. generally they're not seen as a major source of spread, between the air being replaced entirely every few minutes and mask mandates as well as testing for most flights before you're allowed to board.

security lines and hanging about the airport seem like more likely places where you might catch something, but you can distance a bit.

Yeah I agree it’s more likely you’d contract it in the security line or the bathrooms, or even the bar.  I’m just saying 1 in 4300 seems higher than I’d expect if they actually took into consideration all of the flights and more than 1 sick person because I’m sure there are more than 1 person on every flight domestically.  And you also have consider the origin and destinations, flights to and from Florida for example HAVE to be greater odds simply because of how many unvaccinated potentially positive people would be on a flight from Florida to anywhere really.  
 

just saying, it was a cherry picked stat to make a "flying is safe” point but does t factor in all the necessary info to make a generalized statement like that. 

2 minutes ago, DiPros said:

Come back with the evidence that we funded gain of function

It’s next to the suitcases full of Biden ballots.  

5 minutes ago, The_Omega said:

 

 

6 prongs???  It must be from Europe.

Joke fail.  Europe outlets only have 2 prongs.  If you were cultured you’d know that.   

2 hours ago, Agent23 said:

My grandparents got vaxxed in like Feb or whenever they started taking care of the 70+. My mom and sister are both part of the anti-vaxx and super pro-trump. I sent my mom the posts about trump being vaxxed, telling the people in alabama to get vaxxed, and even the FPA approval and even when these people would have used LACK of those things as the reason to not get vaxxed, when those circumstances all change they then find some new reason to not do it or those situations all being reversed don't reverse their opinon.

They came to Minneapolis in early June (a pretty well-vaxxed area IMO) and we were at the mall a few times, the zoo, and shoulder to shoulder with tons randos at two separate Twins games.... but 2 weeks from now we are going to Orlando and will be in amusement parks all day, so we'll see if the FL variant kills them or not. 

Keep encouraging them. That's all you can do. 

48 minutes ago, DiPros said:

Come back with the evidence that we funded gain of function

Uhh it’s in the intercept story…

Gotcha Kz…

 

Someone should start a Facebook rumor that Bill Gates is a silent partner in the biggest horse dewormer manufacturer and watch all the Trumptards self immolate.

1 hour ago, DBW said:

Yeah I agree it’s more likely you’d contract it in the security line or the bathrooms, or even the bar.  I’m just saying 1 in 4300 seems higher than I’d expect if they actually took into consideration all of the flights and more than 1 sick person because I’m sure there are more than 1 person on every flight domestically.  And you also have consider the origin and destinations, flights to and from Florida for example HAVE to be greater odds simply because of how many unvaccinated potentially positive people would be on a flight from Florida to anywhere really.  
 

just saying, it was a cherry picked stat to make a "flying is safe” point but does t factor in all the necessary info to make a generalized statement like that. 

It’s next to the suitcases full of Biden ballots.  

It was cherry picked only in the sense that it was one of the few tangible numbers out there on this topic.  I've flown throughout the pandemic, both before and after being vaccinated.  It is well known by frequent air travelers that an airplane is one of the safest public places you can be during a pandemic.  Sounds counterintuitive, I know, but the airlines have put in hepa air filters and instituted a strict disinfectant regimen.  They have had a lot of scientists study viral transmission in sealed aircraft compartments and the results are very good.  

16 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

It was cherry picked only in the sense that it was one of the few tangible numbers out there on this topic.  I've flown throughout the pandemic, both before and after being vaccinated.  It is well known by frequent air travelers that an airplane is one of the safest public places you can be during a pandemic.  Sounds counterintuitive, I know, but the airlines have put in hepa air filters and instituted a strict disinfectant regimen.  They have had a lot of scientists study viral transmission in sealed aircraft compartments and the results are very good.  

Like I said I’m sure that newer planes have all the latest stuff but I’ve been on planes where I can smell plenty of farts, thing that smell like burning electrical, crap I was stuck on a plane for 5 hours in Chicago because if Unidentified smoke that filled the cabin.  Give me a brand new plane and I’m sure the air is fantastic.  But southwest from philly to Florida has some planes that barely fly let alone have clean air.

I don’t deny the value of air filtration.  Health clubs have very little spread because of that reason.  Many that I know of invested 40-60k on new systems.  
 

and I don’t deny that the new systems were studied from a virus and air cleanliness standpoint during their design and implementation phases.  I do however question a 1 in 4300 number that was thrown out there without considering ALL scenarios and factors. It’s like saying hey there’s a thunderstorm out there right now and you have a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance of being struck by lightning in the wooded Forest if you go stand out there for 2 hours but if I took out all of  the trees and handed you a 2 iron, and said it’s only 1 in 4300 now, I bet my life savings you wouldn’t do it.  

42 minutes ago, DBW said:

Like I said I’m sure that newer planes have all the latest stuff but I’ve been on planes where I can smell plenty of farts, thing that smell like burning electrical, crap I was stuck on a plane for 5 hours in Chicago because if Unidentified smoke that filled the cabin.  Give me a brand new plane and I’m sure the air is fantastic.  But southwest from philly to Florida has some planes that barely fly let alone have clean air.

I don’t deny the value of air filtration.  Health clubs have very little spread because of that reason.  Many that I know of invested 40-60k on new systems.  
 

and I don’t deny that the new systems were studied from a virus and air cleanliness standpoint during their design and implementation phases.  I do however question a 1 in 4300 number that was thrown out there without considering ALL scenarios and factors. It’s like saying hey there’s a thunderstorm out there right now and you have a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance of being struck by lightning in the wooded Forest if you go stand out there for 2 hours but if I took out all of  the trees and handed you a 2 iron, and said it’s only 1 in 4300 now, I bet my life savings you wouldn’t do it.  

Sorry you didn't like that study.  Seemed pretty conservative to me...assumed all seats filled, smaller aircraft, etc.  Still, the fact is that airplanes are safer than the grocery store. 

6 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Sorry you didn't like that study.  Seemed pretty conservative to me...assumed all seats filled, smaller aircraft, etc.  Still, the fact is that airplanes are safer than the grocery store. 

Your point is ridiculous regardless of the study’s variables. The original conversation was centered around the FAA regulations and TSA security protocols that prevent terrorism/no fly lists, etc.  Someone’s likelihood of dying in a terrorist attack on a plane is far less than 1 in 4300 and yet we still bar certain people from flying and institute strict security measures to prevent it from happening.