8 hours ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

LMAO, so what is the criteria in your own mind for signing Hurts as our franchise QB and paying him big money for a long time? You know, including intangibles,the fact he is a nice guy and Brown is his buddy, taking all that in, where is your bar set? What would make you want him for the next 4-5 years?

He needs to improve as a passer. Durability is also a crucial metric. These will be big factors in the amount to sign him for. But I can say he had to throw for such and such amount of yards. If the D scores two TDs and we return a kick I wouldn’t continue passing the ball much. You pass the most when behind. I’d prefer to be in the lead mostly. So if that is indeed the case amount of throws shouldn’t be high. To me a franchise guy needs to be clutch. Show that the bigger and biggest moments he doesn’t shrink. Find a way to convert third downs. Score TDs when in the Redzone. At the end of the game bring it home. All that on top of being the team leader that gets the best out of his teammates that want to follow him.

3 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Well... we can see the BS when a question is refused to be answered.

The schedule is already out…is that what you’re saying?

I did see we almost traded Reagor

1 minute ago, cunninghamtheman said:

He needs to improve as a passer. Durability is also a crucial metric. These will be big factors in the amount to sign him for. But I can say he had to throw for such and such amount of yards. If the D scores two TDs and we return a kick I wouldn’t continue passing the ball much. You pass the most when behind. I’d prefer to be in the lead mostly. So if that is indeed the case amount of throws shouldn’t be high. To me a franchise guy needs to be clutch. Show that the bigger and biggest moments he doesn’t shrink. Find a way to convert third downs. Score TDs when in the Redzone. At the end of the game bring it home. All that on top of being the team leader that gets the best out of his teammates that want to follow him.

So in this whole explanation....you don't have that a franchise guy has to beat a good team in there.    You want to be ahead so you don't have to pass?    How about passing the ball to actually get ahead???  Like vs good teams they aren't going to allow you to just run the ball on them and that's it.  The game starts 0-0.... this is just as bad as the idea of the Dream Team defense always playing with a lead.

How about the idea that you have a good team with the score tied?  This way everyone can perform regardless of the score.

It's not our fault...we didn't have a lead???

So let me ask...why didn't you have a lead?   If you were Jason Babin and his crew...you gave up the points to fall behind.   If you are Hurts and crew, you didn't score to get the lead.    That's why the whole " well we need to play with a lead" is just flawed...  you have to get the lead first, it starts 0-0. 

6 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

So in this whole explanation....you don't have that a franchise guy has to beat a good team in there.    You want to be ahead so you don't have to pass?    How about passing the ball to actually get ahead???  Like vs good teams they aren't going to allow you to just run the ball on them and that's it.  The game starts 0-0.... this is just as bad as the idea of the Dream Team defense always playing with a lead.

How about the idea that you have a good team with the score tied?  This way everyone can perform regardless of the score.

These are whole different ideas and points. But yes….I want to play with the lead. I will control the clock and play things safe. But sure we need to pass. I was just pointing out passing metrics don’t happen in a vacuum. So I’m not going to say Hurts needs to throw for a certain amount of yardage to be successful. I’m not going to say we can’t run the ball against good teams though either. Think the league trend has gone very specialized and more finesse. So I think our(and SF) physical approach is a different challenge for teams. The base D league wide is Nickle. Your D isn’t going to be good if you don’t have that package going well. A physical rushing attack Nickle won’t work against. So it takes more prep in that one week getting ready for us. That’s an advantage I fully want us to take advantage of.

13 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

It's not our fault...we didn't have a lead???

So let me ask...why didn't you have a lead?   If you were Jason Babin and his crew...you gave up the points to fall behind.   If you are Hurts and crew, you didn't score to get the lead.    That's why the whole " well we need to play with a lead" is just flawed...  you have to get the lead first, it starts 0-0. 

With the Dream Team we did have record setting offense in house. In KC they have a D setup similarly. Most of the league is more concerned defensively with the pass than the run. Where do the big contracts go? To the run stoppers? Or the excellent pass defenders? This is just facts of today’s NFL. But we’ve definitely seen first hand how if you can’t stop the run or even short passing then you won’t get the ball back.

But to answer the question about passing. That’s why we needed AJ so bad. Seemed like we were linked to trying to get any vet WR all offseason. But especially a guy that can beat Press coverage. That’s the main thing Bowles exposed on us. If you pressed our WR then you attack our backfield …run or pass. Best way to attack our O. AJ is a very physical guy that thrives on that. Our teams identity is Physical…so he fits right in. 
 

So I’d expect this enables Smitty to be the Z. With AJ being the X. Main thing is the X is on the line and easier for a defender to get hands on. Don’t all freak and say I’m not saying guys won’t move around. But their main spots they are best at would be this. Quez best metrics came from the slot. So everybody fits their role.

19 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

These are whole different ideas and points. But yes….I want to play with the lead. I will control the clock and play things safe. But sure we need to pass. I was just pointing out passing metrics don’t happen in a vacuum. So I’m not going to say Hurts needs to throw for a certain amount of yardage to be successful. I’m not going to say we can’t run the ball against good teams though either. Think the league trend has gone very specialized and more finesse. So I think our(and SF) physical approach is a different challenge for teams. The base D league wide is Nickle. Your D isn’t going to be good if you don’t have that package going well. A physical rushing attack Nickle won’t work against. So it takes more prep in that one week getting ready for us. That’s an advantage I fully want us to take advantage of.

I don't think Hurts needs a certain yardage either.  I want to see him pass the ball well and the Eagles light up the scoreboard like we know a good QB would do with the surrounding cast. 

21 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

These are whole different ideas and points. But yes….I want to play with the lead. I will control the clock and play things safe. But sure we need to pass. I was just pointing out passing metrics don’t happen in a vacuum. So I’m not going to say Hurts needs to throw for a certain amount of yardage to be successful. I’m not going to say we can’t run the ball against good teams though either. Think the league trend has gone very specialized and more finesse. So I think our(and SF) physical approach is a different challenge for teams. The base D league wide is Nickle. Your D isn’t going to be good if you don’t have that package going well. A physical rushing attack Nickle won’t work against. So it takes more prep in that one week getting ready for us. That’s an advantage I fully want us to take advantage of.

So... was our physical approach difficult for the good teams to play against last year?

1 hour ago, cunninghamtheman said:

He needs to improve as a passer. Durability is also a crucial metric. These will be big factors in the amount to sign him for. But I can say he had to throw for such and such amount of yards. If the D scores two TDs and we return a kick I wouldn’t continue passing the ball much. You pass the most when behind. I’d prefer to be in the lead mostly. So if that is indeed the case amount of throws shouldn’t be high. To me a franchise guy needs to be clutch. Show that the bigger and biggest moments he doesn’t shrink. Find a way to convert third downs. Score TDs when in the Redzone. At the end of the game bring it home. All that on top of being the team leader that gets the best out of his teammates that want to follow him.

The schedule is already out…is that what you’re saying?

So ANY "improvement on passing"(I will ASSUME that is based on yardage) would be cause to claim Hurts as our franchise QB. I understand this,what I am asking is HOW MANY YARDS(if that is your criteria) would it take for you to say "He is my future QB and we need to pay him big for the next 4-5 years). It's not a tough question,just asking what it would take. If Hurts cannot improve his passing with the investments we have made for him(monetary and draft capital), then you may as well claim it now,because unless he throws behind himself, there is little doubt his passing numbers will improve. That should be a no brainer,so once again I ask "how many yards" or what other criteria is there? I am simply asking what loosely do you need to see from him? We also know you can pass for 300 yards and still lose games,so are wins also a part of your criteria? I'm not trying to be an arse,I truly would like to know the cut off,bar height,minimum acceptable because those are what the FO is going to make decisions on(based on their own minimums)

1 hour ago, cunninghamtheman said:

If the D scores two TDs and we return a kick I wouldn’t continue passing the ball much. You pass the most when behind

The exact recipe to lose games. DO what WORKS. Getting too conservative can kill you. Making yourself 1 dimensional is always a bad decision

1 hour ago, cunninghamtheman said:

So I’m not going to say Hurts needs to throw for a certain amount of yardage to be successful

What is that number? because you SHOULD be saying he needs to throw for a certain amount. I want to see 4,000 yards(in the air not running around) and I want to see that WITHOUT YAC.I want to see 35 points per game(average) and I want to see minimum 30 TD PASSES(forget rushing TD's) and a fair amount(reasonable) picks because we know QB's are not infallible. I also want to see at least 1- 1,000 yard WR, but actually to seal the deal, I want to see TWO. So that is my personal BASIC criteria. With the offense we have put together it is doable and if he can't reach those plateaus, I need to start looking around. The schedule is easy once again and there is zero reason these numbers can't be achieved. These are my minimums.Anything less is USFL

54 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

So... was our physical approach difficult for the good teams to play against last year?

We didn’t actually establish and have that identity early in the season. That’s when we played the good teams. Instead Siri admitted to his approach was win a shootout vs Dallas. But I definitely thought that was the obvious approach for our team last year. It took Jordan Howard against the Lions to show our coach the obvious.

1 hour ago, cunninghamtheman said:

These are whole different ideas and points. But yes….I want to play with the lead. I will control the clock and play things safe. But sure we need to pass. I was just pointing out passing metrics don’t happen in a vacuum. So I’m not going to say Hurts needs to throw for a certain amount of yardage to be successful. I’m not going to say we can’t run the ball against good teams though either. Think the league trend has gone very specialized and more finesse. So I think our(and SF) physical approach is a different challenge for teams. The base D league wide is Nickle. Your D isn’t going to be good if you don’t have that package going well. A physical rushing attack Nickle won’t work against. So it takes more prep in that one week getting ready for us. That’s an advantage I fully want us to take advantage of.

Every team wants to play with a lead,please. If you lose the initial coin flip vs a good team,you can expect to go down 3-0 or 7-0. You need to answer back. I also need to see growth from Siri. No more stupid clock management mistakes. No more letting the other team set the pace of the game. We need to play at OUR pace. A nice mix of pass/run to see where their vulnerabilities are that you didn't see watching 80 hours of vids. making adjustments on the fly. Sorry, in todays league you can't wait until 1/2 time to adjust,you need to do it IN game. I am anxious to see how Gannon uses his shiny new toys. Secondary is still very suspect,but we need to produce the pass rush that was absent last year. besides Hurts,I will be looking at these issues also

Everybody keeps acting like our Oline was dominant all year. But that wasn’t the case. We got hit with injury losing both starting G. Lane head wasn’t right. The younger guys, especially Dickerson, weren’t nearly the pass blockers they were run blockers. Having backups come in also hurt the Oline chemistry. Assignments were blown as well as losing the one on one matchups. I saw(thought we all did) our Oline really thrive attacking defenders with a physical run block approach. Wear on them being aggressive. That helped setup the backwards pass blocking. It was a mentality thing as well as the physical endurable effect.

4 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

We didn’t actually establish and have that identity early in the season. That’s when we played the good teams. Instead Siri admitted to his approach was win a shootout vs Dallas. But I definitely thought that was the obvious approach for our team last year. It took Jordan Howard against the Lions to show our coach the obvious.

Do we re-sign Howard? He's older now and we really lack that basher type RB,but he still could be useful in certain situations. I would prefer to avoid this,but we have not replaced that type RB. I mean Fournette is still going at it in TB. used reasonably I could see us taking Howard back,but it would be at the expense of someone else. BTW who did we try to trade reagor to and for what(if you know)

1 hour ago, joemas6 said:

I don't think Hurts needs a certain yardage either.  I want to see him pass the ball well and the Eagles light up the scoreboard like we know a good QB would do with the surrounding cast. 

We don’t have the most elite offense league history or anything. It’s just actually legit now. We were 12th scoring last year. So I expect top ten. Whatever your bar is for lighting up the scoreboard. But there is a key synergy in play….the defense. Against good teams the D didn’t get off the field. Allowed record setting QB completion percentages. Clearly the book was out on the D. So if our D improves it will assist the O. Even a bad offense will produce if the D constantly gets three and outs. Football is the ultimate team game…try and remember this.

2 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Everybody keeps acting like our Oline was dominant all year. But that wasn’t the case. We got hit with injury losing both starting G. Lane head wasn’t right. The younger guys, especially Dickerson, weren’t nearly the pass blockers they were run blockers. Having backups come in also hurt the Oline chemistry. Assignments were blown as well as losing the one on one matchups. I saw(thought we all did) our Oline really thrive attacking defenders with a physical run block approach. Wear on them being aggressive. That helped setup the backwards pass blocking. It was a mentality thing as well as the physical endurable effect.

My op- Early on through week 6,we had little running game because the O line was told to stay back and block for the Hurts RPO show. Hurts held the ball for a long time,so the O line did it's job. once Siri moved away from that,the run game blossomed(which helped the passing game),so he should have learned that already,so let's not make that mistake again especially with all we have invested in the passing attack 

1 hour ago, joemas6 said:

I don't think Hurts needs a certain yardage either.  I want to see him pass the ball well and the Eagles light up the scoreboard like we know a good QB would do with the surrounding cast. 

I will disagree a bit here. I have a certain amount(4k yards) that needs to be hit. Although we can win games with 2 yard dink passes at the GL,that does little to tell me what the future Hurts looks like. There is no more time for experiments. Either he is our QB going forward or he isn't, so I respectfully disagree on this point. You can view my personal criteria.I'm sure the FO has their own. he needs to check off all those boxes before I open the checkbook

29 minutes ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

So ANY "improvement on passing"(I will ASSUME that is based on yardage) would be cause to claim Hurts as our franchise QB. I understand this,what I am asking is HOW MANY YARDS(if that is your criteria) would it take for you to say "He is my future QB and we need to pay him big for the next 4-5 years). It's not a tough question,just asking what it would take. If Hurts cannot improve his passing with the investments we have made for him(monetary and draft capital), then you may as well claim it now,because unless he throws behind himself, there is little doubt his passing numbers will improve. That should be a no brainer,so once again I ask "how many yards" or what other criteria is there? I am simply asking what loosely do you need to see from him? We also know you can pass for 300 yards and still lose games,so are wins also a part of your criteria? I'm not trying to be an arse,I truly would like to know the cut off,bar height,minimum acceptable because those are what the FO is going to make decisions on(based on their own minimums)

This is why I was explaining there is no set yardage marker for me. He’ll throw for the most yardage if we are behind all season. I rely on the eye test mostly. But I also am pointing out there are a thousand boxes to check to be a Franchise QB. He checks a ton of those boxes already for me. He improved his completion percentage last year. That is one area he needs to keep working on. But even there…..if Siri drops up the perfect playcall the completion is much easier. Overall improved passing and reading the defense is needed. Some of that still falls on his and Siri’s synergy and capability. So what gets placed on the receivers, coach or QB? Just gotta grade individually. Tough for us fans to do always. We don’t know whether a guy ran the wrong route. We don’t know the read progressions Siri expects in every situation. I do feel there is a very great communication level between coach and QB. Feel Hurts is very coachable. So actually some of what will look like Hurts improving will actually be Siri maturing into the job. 

35 minutes ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

The exact recipe to lose games. DO what WORKS. Getting too conservative can kill you. Making yourself 1 dimensional is always a bad decision

Going three and out passing stopping the clock a bunch just gives more opportunity for a come back. So I absolutely believe in milking the clock with a lead. I don’t want to waste the clock when behind. The clock is a huge part of the game. Gotta manage it and have it work for you.

36 minutes ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

What is that number? because you SHOULD be saying he needs to throw for a certain amount. I want to see 4,000 yards(in the air not running around) and I want to see that WITHOUT YAC.I want to see 35 points per game(average) and I want to see minimum 30 TD PASSES(forget rushing TD's) and a fair amount(reasonable) picks because we know QB's are not infallible. I also want to see at least 1- 1,000 yard WR, but actually to seal the deal, I want to see TWO. So that is my personal BASIC criteria. With the offense we have put together it is doable and if he can't reach those plateaus, I need to start looking around. The schedule is easy once again and there is zero reason these numbers can't be achieved. These are my minimums.Anything less is USFL

I’m explaining exactly why there is no set number. If we pass or run for a first down or TD that works for me. I’m not really biased. But we need the results. Can you not admit if we are behind all season the passing numbers should be greater than if we are leading all season? You say the schedule is soft. That would seem to point to good opportunities for us to be on the lead and be favorites to win. I don’t want anybody chasing stats. That’s how you blow games. If we are the better team that Sunday….we shouldn’t have to get all crazy and cute with things. It’s almost a more don’t screw up and blow it. So I’d be more conservative whenever you are afforded. I’d get more aggressive and take bigger risks when facing a better team. 

25 minutes ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

Every team wants to play with a lead,please. If you lose the initial coin flip vs a good team,you can expect to go down 3-0 or 7-0. You need to answer back. I also need to see growth from Siri. No more stupid clock management mistakes. No more letting the other team set the pace of the game. We need to play at OUR pace. A nice mix of pass/run to see where their vulnerabilities are that you didn't see watching 80 hours of vids. making adjustments on the fly. Sorry, in todays league you can't wait until 1/2 time to adjust,you need to do it IN game. I am anxious to see how Gannon uses his shiny new toys. Secondary is still very suspect,but we need to produce the pass rush that was absent last year. besides Hurts,I will be looking at these issues also

Everybody wants to play with the lead, yes. When you have it you should use that against your opponent. So situations effects stats. How many sacks will a defender get if his team is down and getting run on a bunch? Going down 3-0 early doesn’t change anything for me. 

Last year vs the Lions you want to use Hurts low passing numbers against him. To me that’s not fair or indicative of his passing skills. If you are steam rolling with the run…do that. Up several TDs I don’t care to chase stats and chuck it deep. That’s what you want it seems. Up three TDs all that you are saying is Hurts needs to pass for big yardage and TDs after that point to earn the big payday. Not how I’m judging things. But an easy way to get over four thousand passing yards. The guy ran for almost 800 yards last year. A guy that does that doesn’t need to throw for five thousand yards. Get it done is all that matters to me. He needs to improve on making the best play…whatever it is. That’s about all I need to see. Think it will be difficult. Teams have all this film on him now. The hardest thing for every player is adjusting and overcoming your weaknesses. The league always finds them. Can Hurts do that? Or will it just shut him down? Mike Vick was the perfect example. Lighting the league on fire and then the book came out on him. Record setting O…done. Think Siri the same. Guys know his style and tendencies now. Can he adjust? Like you say about adjusting in game. Gotta do this all season. Self scouting is a huge part of the puzzle for all.