15 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

See this logic is flawed though. Cap does go up. But so do salaries. So everything goes hand in hand.

That is partially correct. Cap definitely goes up. Newly contracted salaries go up, but already contracted salaries do not go up. So the same dollar salary is a smaller percentage of a larger Cap.

1 minute ago, mattwill said:

You lost me. What changed in the Steelers game?

Nothing... Hurts had a bad game before... after a nice run. Two huge wins on the road...and another bunch of huge games coming up.

Apparently Hurts isn't allowed to have a let down game. And we need 50 points consistently. 🤦🤦🤦

Just now, mattwill said:

That is partially correct. Cap definitely goes up. Newly contracted salaries go up, but already contracted salaries do not go up. So the same dollar salary is a smaller percentage of a larger Cap.

Yes...now you get it.

But future cap hits do go up if you have to convert current year salary into bonus.

17 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

And let's say the Eagles decide to keep Hurts in 2029... with minimal additional cap hit ...meanwhile Mahomes will have another big cap hit. Same for 2030 and 2031

Eagles set up much better ... again if they decide to keep Hurts. Really not worried about him deciding to leave.

Okay, I’ll bite. In 2028-2029 Hurts and his agent sit down with Howie to negotiate an extension. What AAV are they going to be looking for?

19 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Plus things aren’t all equal. See could just take on the cap hit more initially. See the problem that arises is that cap money getting spent almost either way.

All true, but irrelevant.

18 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

See you saying hey..,I’ll spend tomorrow’s money for today sounds great in a bubble. But everything costs so much more and you’ve saddled more on there. Where if you actually double whammy and take on more cap hit initially without capping out then you are getting ahead of things for the future instead.

That is correct, and the easiest way to accomplish exactly what you are describing is to push the Cap out into the future.

Players don’t give a crap about Cap. They care about cash. And once the right amount of cash is agreed to, the player is happy and doesn’t care how the team accounts for that cash.

22 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Jurgens contract set up same way. Really all of them ...but the QB numbers being the highest paid guys...they have the most effect on the cap. You do the QB the right way, it helps the most.

Agreed 100%

21 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

He isn't going to be playing for $42 mil...because they are going to have to restructure and push a lot of money down the road....lol. come on now.

It is pushed down the road from an accounting perspective, but it is still cash that has been actually paid to Hurts, so it has to be accounted for.

So let’s play out your scenario. Hurts and the Eagles agree on. Three year extension that takes the contract out to 2031. What will the AAV of that contract be?

6 minutes ago, mattwill said:

Okay, I’ll bite. In 2028-2029 Hurts and his agent sit down with Howie to negotiate an extension. What AAV are they going to be looking for?

What does AAV matter...only thing that matters are the cap hits. You made a point to show the 2020-2022 years of Mahomes...were they $45 million or way way lower?

It should be obvious... any new money will come with very low additional cap hits early for Hurts... go look at 2020-2022 for Mahomes and 2023-2025 for Hurts.... no where close to $45 mil or $51 mil which is the for show AAV.

Now in contrast... Mahomes already has big numbers on the books , only get bigger as they push more of his salary down the road.

20 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

You just don't get it. You don't get the idea of the rolling cap. I think it's because you want to spend the money up to the limit each year with the idea that it's all in.

The Cap can only roll just so far. Eventually the bill does come due when the rolling stops.

3 minutes ago, mattwill said:

The Cap can only roll just so far. Eventually the bill does come due when the rolling stops.

When is that?

34 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

See you saying hey..,I’ll spend tomorrow’s money for today sounds great in a bubble. But everything costs so much more and you’ve saddled more on there. Where if you actually double whammy and take on more cap hit initially without capping out then you are getting ahead of things for the future instead.

How do you not understand yet how things work? How taking a big cap hit early is exactly the wrong thing to do...that's exactly what handcuffs teams. Ask the Saints.

19 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Matt... you are overthinking.

Do you trust Howie when it comes to money?

He is using these exact principles to keep staying ahead of the cap.

Time value is a huge factor. It's why $97 mil in 2029 is no where close to $97 mil now. When looking at cap effects.

You are underestimating how limited the size of the difference is. The amount paid is the amount paid no matter when it is paid. So no savings there. The savings comes directly from and only from the impact of inflation.

Now, every little bit helps, and Howie is a master. But let’s keep rolling with the Hurts contract vs. the Mahomes contract scenario. I haven’t seen your guess what the AAV of a Hurts 3 year extension might be. Once we have that we can proceed to the next step.

Just now, mattwill said:

You are underestimating how limited the size of the difference is. The amount paid is the amount paid no matter when it is paid. So no savings there. The savings comes directly from and only from the impact of inflation.

Now, every little bit helps, and Howie is a master. But let’s keep rolling with the Hurts contract vs. the Mahomes contract scenario. I haven’t seen your guess what the AAV of a Hurts 3 year extension might be. Once we have that we can proceed to the next step.

Well...I guess you know more than Howie then?

1 minute ago, mattwill said:

You are underestimating how limited the size of the difference is. The amount paid is the amount paid no matter when it is paid. So no savings there. The savings comes directly from and only from the impact of inflation.

Now, every little bit helps, and Howie is a master. But let’s keep rolling with the Hurts contract vs. the Mahomes contract scenario. I haven’t seen your guess what the AAV of a Hurts 3 year extension might be. Once we have that we can proceed to the next step.

I don't care about AAV....means nothing. The cap hits with the ability to get out of them is what matters.

9 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

What does AAV matter...only thing that matters are the cap hits. You made a point to show the 2020-2022 years of Mahomes...were they $45 million or way way lower?

It should be obvious... any new money will come with very low additional cap hits early for Hurts... go look at 2020-2022 for Mahomes and 2023-2025 for Hurts.... no where close to $45 mil or $51 mil which is the for show AAV.

Now in contrast... Mahomes already has big numbers on the books , only get bigger as they push more of his salary down the road.

It matters to determine the amount of cash Hurts and his agent will be looking to receive for his 2029, 2030 and 2031 services. How much cash will they be asking for? $210 million? $240 million?

2 minutes ago, mattwill said:

You are underestimating how limited the size of the difference is. The amount paid is the amount paid no matter when it is paid. So no savings there. The savings comes directly from and only from the impact of inflation.

Now, every little bit helps, and Howie is a master. But let’s keep rolling with the Hurts contract vs. the Mahomes contract scenario. I haven’t seen your guess what the AAV of a Hurts 3 year extension might be. Once we have that we can proceed to the next step.

When you turn 85... we can look back and you can see which years Mahomes will have less of a cap hit than Hurts...only year will be 2029. And it will be much closer than you think.

Just now, mattwill said:

It matters to determine the amount of cash Hurts and his agent will be looking to receive for his 2029, 2030 and 2031 services. How much cash will they be asking for? $210 million? $240 million?

Up front??? No where close

2 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Well...I guess you know more than Howie then?

No I do not. Howie is doing it the right way. Arguably Kansas City isn’t using the Howie method in the existing Mahomes contract.

14 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

What does AAV matter...only thing that matters are the cap hits. You made a point to show the 2020-2022 years of Mahomes...were they $45 million or way way lower?

It should be obvious... any new money will come with very low additional cap hits early for Hurts... go look at 2020-2022 for Mahomes and 2023-2025 for Hurts.... no where close to $45 mil or $51 mil which is the for show AAV.

Now in contrast... Mahomes already has big numbers on the books , only get bigger as they push more of his salary down the road.

You are overthinking. 😉. Leave Mahomes out of it for now. Let’s just get an agreement on what size check Hurts will want Lurie to cut him for 3 years of service from 2029 through 2031.

11 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

When is that?

When the player and the team cut ties or the player retires.

7 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

I don't care about AAV....means nothing. The cap hits with the ability to get out of them is what matters.

I agree from an accounting perspective, but we haven’t decided on what the amount of money is that we have to account for. How much cash does Hurts want?

7 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Up front??? No where close

Yes up front for the most part. 100% of signing bonuses are paid up front. Howie keeps annual salaries low in order to maximize how much he can push out.

You and I both know that the real number is the guaranteed amount, not the total amount. In the Deshaun Watson contract all $230 million over the 5 years was guaranteed. Watson didn’t get all $230 million up front, but over the 5 years he knew he was going to get it all.

7 minutes ago, mattwill said:

No I do not. Howie is doing it the right way. Arguably Kansas City isn’t using the Howie method in the existing Mahomes contract.

No...more so Joe Banner from 30 years ago.

6 minutes ago, mattwill said:

You are overthinking. 😉. Leave Mahomes out of it for now. Let’s just get an agreement on what size check Hurts will want Lurie to cut him for 3 years of service from 2029 through 2031.

Why do we care about the cash... only the cap hits matter