Marvel Cinematic Universe Thread

[20Safety_Hazards]

48 minutes ago, NOTW said:

They took Loki and made him a supporting cast member in his own show that was supposed to be about him.  He went from the God of Mischief to a lovesick puppy baffoon character following Sylvie around and being foolish instead of crafty. He had a nice moment in the beginning realizing his future and trying to work toward doing something good and I feel like it got diminished over the series.  That would have been more impactful after a few episodes of buildup maybe.

Kang was anti-climatic IMO.  It was supposed to be this big reveal, but everyone already knew it would be Kang.  I would have preferred him to have been more menacing and for him to give a brief warning but they don't believe him and kill him.  Or one of the evil variants makes and appearance.  They are clearing using the TV shows to build up to future movies but I think that can be at the expense of the product you're making at the moment.  The finale was weaker on its own because it was more a setup for movies. 

I don't understand how new Kang variants would start right away, wouldn't it take years?  I don't know.  But all these timeline nexus events branched off immediately, and Loki ends up in one where Kang exists as a hero with a statue.  I thought these would only be new timeline branches, not previous ones that were like blocked or hidden or something now they all appear?  I didn't follow that logic.

For me it was like the end of the Matrix Reloaded.  A lot of build up and hype and ended with a loooooong sequence of boring dialogue.  First rule of script writing is show don't tell and to just have a character talk for 20 minutes of exposition isn't exciting.  Good dialogue and acting doesn't have to be boring, but they did it too much for me.  

I personally did not find Loki to be a secondary character in his own show and I enjoyed the story they told with him. But to each their own.

As for the bolded section, here’s my interpretation. Concerning Kang, all his variants exist in 3100 AD. Immortus Kang and the TVA exist outside the flow of time (or really at the end of the timeline) so everything on the timeline is as if it already happened to the TVA. However, remember that Immortus lived at a point beyond the end of time meaning that for him everything (including the existence of all his evil and good variants) already existed. So when he stopped dictating the timeline all branches at all times on the timeline began to branch off simultaneously. Thus, when the Kang War starts again and a new Kang emerges, his ascension to head of the TVA is instantaneous because the created branches and the battle for supremacy would have existed before the end of time. When the winner emerges, the winner takes the position in the citadel at the end of time, thus making the outcome perceivably instantaneous (because it already happened). And since the TVA is taking instruction from the citadel, when something happens at the citadel it also happens at the TVA. I expect we’ll get more of an answer in season2, which goes back to my main criticism for the show. 

Time travel stories are always plagued with logical inconsistencies.  It’s just the way it is because time travel is (at least currently) theoretical and often subject to logical paradoxes. For the purposes of the story, if the story works if the rules created are followed consistently. Nothing in the ending felt inconsistent to what they already set up, but I could see how some of it was not established in sufficient detail. But for time travel it’s kind of hard to do that without huge exposition dumps because time travel is kinda difficult to do as show not tell. 

[NOTW]

1 hour ago, 20Safety_Hazards said:

I personally did not find Loki to be a secondary character in his own show and I enjoyed the story they told with him. But to each their own.

As for the bolded section, here’s my interpretation. Concerning Kang, all his variants exist in 3100 AD. Immortus Kang and the TVA exist outside the flow of time (or really at the end of the timeline) so everything on the timeline is as if it already happened to the TVA. However, remember that Immortus lived at a point beyond the end of time meaning that for him everything (including the existence of all his evil and good variants) already existed. So when he stopped dictating the timeline all branches at all times on the timeline began to branch off simultaneously. Thus, when the Kang War starts again and a new Kang emerges, his ascension to head of the TVA is instantaneous because the created branches and the battle for supremacy would have existed before the end of time. When the winner emerges, the winner takes the position in the citadel at the end of time, thus making the outcome perceivably instantaneous (because it already happened). And since the TVA is taking instruction from the citadel, when something happens at the citadel it also happens at the TVA. I expect we’ll get more of an answer in season2, which goes back to my main criticism for the show. 

Time travel stories are always plagued with logical inconsistencies.  It’s just the way it is because time travel is (at least currently) theoretical and often subject to logical paradoxes. For the purposes of the story, if the story works if the rules created are followed consistently. Nothing in the ending felt inconsistent to what they already set up, but I could see how some of it was not established in sufficient detail. But for time travel it’s kind of hard to do that without huge exposition dumps because time travel is kinda difficult to do as show not tell. 

Thanks, we can always count on you for great explanations.  I don't know these stories from the comics either, so I just judge on how the writers present the story on screen.

[NOTW]

[Alpha_TATEr]

18 hours ago, NOTW said:

Thanks, we can always count on you for great explanations.  I don't know these stories from the comics either, so I just judge on how the writers present the story on screen.

so you're off the ledge now ? 

[NOTW]

9 hours ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

so you're off the ledge now ? 

What ledge? I didn't like the show. I do appreciate 20 always sharing his knowledge of the comics and back stories. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

On 7/20/2021 at 2:08 AM, NOTW said:

I don't like this multi verse thing and I don't really get how it ties in with the variants stuff. Just do one or the other. That's just my opinion. 

[Boogyman]

5 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I don't like this multi verse thing and I don't really get how it ties in with the variants stuff. Just do one or the other. That's just my opinion. 

Can you even have variants without a multiverse?

[Alpha_TATEr]

50 minutes ago, Boogyman said:

Can you even have variants without a multiverse?

yeah to me they go hand and hand. can't have one without the other. 

people will either enjoy this storyline or not, either way it was a huge part of the marvel comic world so it's happening. 

[Alpha_TATEr]

11 hours ago, NOTW said:

What ledge? I didn't like the show. I do appreciate 20 always sharing his knowledge of the comics and back stories. 

like the show dammit !!!!

just kidding with you, like i said before it's all subjective. people are going to like what they like. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

1 hour ago, Boogyman said:

Can you even have variants without a multiverse?

Of course you can. 

[Boogyman]

34 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Of course you can. 

A variant is a version of a person from another timeline/universe (hence multiverse). If there is no multiverse than there is only one universe, so there is only one version of an individual. So no variants.

[NOTW]

 

1 hour ago, Boogyman said:

A variant is a version of a person from another timeline/universe (hence multiverse). If there is no multiverse than there is only one universe, so there is only one version of an individual. So no variants.

 

2 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Of course you can. 

Do you mean you liked the variants the way they were in Loki before they killed Kang?  The variants would be created due to a new timeline which the TVA stopped when they would visit that timeline and plant that device that would reset the timeline, and capture the variant.  They had that threshold of where the timeline would hit beyond the ability to reset.  

Now there will be multiple universes created plus the variants.  Is that what you meant? Because variants exist because of different timelines.

[NOTW]

The Loki variants were almost all different from the Loki we knew.  Black, female, older, even an Alligator (which was stupid).  So other characters we know could have variants that are different as well.  They're already doing the What If? cartoon series.  There's potential with the multi-verse to have characters we know from the MCU appear but different, which gets around having to pay the actors they got rid of.  You can have a different Iron Man, Captain America, Black Widow...and not have to pay them $50 million.  

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a sequence in Doctor Strange Multiverse of Madness with old familiar faces...but different.

[The_Omega]

Sooooo........if there were no other timelines because Kang had destroyed them all, then where did the Loki variants come from?  Were they left over from before he tied all of the other timelines off?  I guess that could make a little sense, because they appeared to have been surviving in The Void for a while.  But that doesn't necessarily explain Sylvie.

[Boogyman]

1 hour ago, NOTW said:

 

 

Do you mean you liked the variants the way they were in Loki before they killed Kang?  The variants would be created due to a new timeline which the TVA stopped when they would visit that timeline and plant that device that would reset the timeline, and capture the variant.  They had that threshold of where the timeline would hit beyond the ability to reset.  

Now there will be multiple universes created plus the variants.  Is that what you meant? Because variants exist because of different timelines.

Yes. And each time the timeline branched it created a new universe. The TVA "pruned" the branches but the "Variants" that they captured where still versions of the same person but from a different universe. 

So the TVA kept the universe from branching into endless numbers of universes, but now it's wrecked.

[Boogyman]

16 minutes ago, The_Omega said:

Sooooo........if there were no other timelines because Kang had destroyed them all, then where did the Loki variants come from?  Were they left over from before he tied all of the other timelines off?  I guess that could make a little sense, because they appeared to have been surviving in The Void for a while.  But that doesn't necessarily explain Sylvie.

I think they were captured when the branches formed, right before they fixed the timeline. Remember when they captured Loki in the beginning, they pulled him through the portal door thing, then used the device to reset the timeline. Silvie had one of their devices so she kept getting away.

[NOTW]

40 minutes ago, The_Omega said:

Sooooo........if there were no other timelines because Kang had destroyed them all, then where did the Loki variants come from?  Were they left over from before he tied all of the other timelines off?  I guess that could make a little sense, because they appeared to have been surviving in The Void for a while.  But that doesn't necessarily explain Sylvie.

The TVA would show up, arrest the variant responsible and then reset that timeline so it disappeared.  The variant would go on trial in the TVA - where time doesn't exist or however they explained that, sort of a purgatory of time I guess - and if they touched them with their glowy stick they went to the void...to be eaten by a purple Lost smoke monster.  Why not just destroy the variants and skip the monster you ask?  Because they wanted to show all the Loki variants for a few laughs and have a way for Sylvie and Loki to get to the all powerful Oz behind the curtain and win.  The difference with Sylvie was that she escaped and was hiding in apocalypse events and moving throughout history.  Why couldn't Kang find her despite seeing everything, you ask?  So the show could happen, that's why.  

[Bwestbrook36]

5 hours ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

yeah to me they go hand and hand. can't have one without the other. 

people will either enjoy this storyline or not, either way it was a huge part of the marvel comic world so it's happening. 

That's why I'm out on the next phase of marvel movies... I have no desire to keep up with multiverses, timelines and different variants of characters. It always turns into a complete mess then they need to reboot the damn thing. 

[Alpha_TATEr]

31 minutes ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

That's why I'm out on the next phase of marvel movies... I have no desire to keep up with multiverses, timelines and different variants of characters. It always turns into a complete mess then they need to reboot the damn thing. 

its going to be a tough sell IMO, but i'll hang in there. 

[Alpha_TATEr]

56 minutes ago, NOTW said:

The TVA would show up, arrest the variant responsible and then reset that timeline so it disappeared.  The variant would go on trial in the TVA - where time doesn't exist or however they explained that, sort of a purgatory of time I guess - and if they touched them with their glowy stick they went to the void...to be eaten by a purple Lost smoke monster.  Why not just destroy the variants and skip the monster you ask?  Because they wanted to show all the Loki variants for a few laughs and have a way for Sylvie and Loki to get to the all powerful Oz behind the curtain and win.  The difference with Sylvie was that she escaped and was hiding in apocalypse events and moving throughout history.  Why couldn't Kang find her despite seeing everything, you ask?  So the show could happen, that's why.  

 

 

sorry. i had to. 

[Boogyman]

2 hours ago, NOTW said:

The TVA would show up, arrest the variant responsible and then reset that timeline so it disappeared.  The variant would go on trial in the TVA - where time doesn't exist or however they explained that, sort of a purgatory of time I guess - and if they touched them with their glowy stick they went to the void...to be eaten by a purple Lost smoke monster.  Why not just destroy the variants and skip the monster you ask?  Because they wanted to show all the Loki variants for a few laughs and have a way for Sylvie and Loki to get to the all powerful Oz behind the curtain and win.  The difference with Sylvie was that she escaped and was hiding in apocalypse events and moving throughout history.  Why couldn't Kang find her despite seeing everything, you ask?  So the show could happen, that's why.  

The TVA ranks were made up of variants. It seems to me when the timeline split they used it as an opportunity to recruit. Without variants there would be no TVA.

[NOTW]

4 hours ago, Boogyman said:

The TVA ranks were made up of variants. It seems to me when the timeline split they used it as an opportunity to recruit. Without variants there would be no TVA.

I mean the variants they touched with the purge stick to send them to the void. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

15 hours ago, Boogyman said:

A variant is a version of a person from another timeline/universe (hence multiverse). If there is no multiverse than there is only one universe, so there is only one version of an individual. So no variants.

Perhaps it's a terminology thing. I guess ultimately there's not a big difference.

My take is... A variant on a timeline can be erased as it were. That's why in Endgame Cap goes back to return the stones to the exact point they were taken. This is reinforced in Loki when the TVA erase variants from the natural timeline.

Multi verse to me is infinite possibilities. Like the Xmen could exist in another Multi verse. Like in DC with the Flash and Super Girl. In a Multi verse you can have multiple Tony Starks as Iron man but you can also have other people in other universes as Iron man. Hence Toby Maguire being in the next spider man potentially.

[Boogyman]

1 hour ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Perhaps it's a terminology thing. I guess ultimately there's not a big difference.

My take is... A variant on a timeline can be erased as it were. That's why in Endgame Cap goes back to return the stones to the exact point they were taken. This is reinforced in Loki when the TVA erase variants from the natural timeline.

Multi verse to me is infinite possibilities. Like the Xmen could exist in another Multi verse. Like in DC with the Flash and Super Girl. In a Multi verse you can have multiple Tony Starks as Iron man but you can also have other people in other universes as Iron man. Hence Toby Maguire being in the next spider man potentially.

I agree. What I am saying is those infinite possibilities come to be due to branching of the timeline (seems to be Marvels take anyway). Kang didn't want a multiverse because of the multiverse war, so his way of eliminating it was to clip the branches, hence prevent alternate universes from coming to be. By keeping the timeline from branching there was no multiverse. Now the Loki's destroyed the TVA so all the branches popped in being on the timeline at once.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

2 hours ago, Boogyman said:

I agree. What I am saying is those infinite possibilities come to be due to branching of the timeline (seems to be Marvels take anyway). Kang didn't want a multiverse because of the multiverse war, so his way of eliminating it was to clip the branches, hence prevent alternate universes from coming to be. By keeping the timeline from branching there was no multiverse. Now the Loki's destroyed the TVA so all the branches popped in being on the timeline at once.

Ok so it's timelines that creates multiple outcomes rather than multiverses? Like in the Flash there's earth 1, 2, 3 etc. But with the MCU they are doing timeline variants? Same outcome i guess but I prefer the timeline explanation.