20 minutes ago, RLC said:

My read on the Jets, and Jags, is this.

They spent 2 years clearly cap space and acquiring picks. They've had multiple 1sts + high picks (top 3) to do whatever they wanted. It's significantly easier picking players when you have more draft ammo than every other team. They also plugged in holes in free agency. That's now to say I disliked their drafts, but it's easier to take Etienne in RD1 or trade-up for Vera-Tucker when you have picks that no one else.

Yes, Agreed in principle.

But we have both seen over the last 2 decades that organizations that accumulate multiple high draft picks and salary cap room don't automatically convert that into winning and / or stable franchises.

The Bengals, Browns, and Jags come to mind as organizations over the last 20 years that squandered multiple high draft picks and tens of millions in annual cap space and yet could never seem to get it right beyond a random good season here or there.   If you want to go "old school" think of the Eagles organization before Dick Vermeil, the Colts before Bill Polian, or the 49ers before Bill Walsh.   Years of ineptitude and squandered opportunities before those organizational leaders took over.

So the ability of the GM and Front Office and Scouting Department he builds, and the organizational culture a GM implements, will always matter.

Does anyone know if Milton Williams had some sort of right knee injury?  I can't find anything in scouting reports but in his highlights there are clips where he has a big brace (the kind you wear post ACL) on his right knee.

If you listen to Howie talk he says McPhearson was the best value, along with Gainwell.  Said they considered trading up into the end of the 3rd to take Zech …. although I confess when he was announced as the pick at #123 I had never heard of him 

14 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

I don’t know how anyone can come out of this draft with a more favorable opinion of Howie from before.   

I think if you dont want to, you just complain how he missed and passed on every CB we wanted, didnt draft any safety, and didnt draft any real LBs.

If you wanted to be objective you say he drafted a bunch of nice players that should contribute and thats a successful draft. You realize you cant fill every need in the draft all at once. And you figure he did pretty well this year, lets see if he can do it again next year.

 

You CAN come away with a more favorable opinion, if you wanted to.

32 minutes ago, Rhinoddd50 said:

No we do not...at least not clearly.   

Douglas does have to take at least some of the blame for being part of an Eagles FO / Scouting Department that delivered some very poor drafts, and some obviously poor choices (even at the time the picks were made).   He can't have the role of basically #3 in the organization (behind Lurie and Howie) but then blame everyone else around him for failure.

But Douglas has a chance to wash some of that stink off of him with the Jets.   So time will tell.

If Douglas turns the Jets around and into a good team and solid organization, then it will provide him some personal validation (in my opinion at least).

The interesting thing is that a major complaint was his "low upside, low athleticism” type of guys, and he’s done the exact opposite. I think he’s done well in NY with the draft. And I think he’s done great with his trades too. 

31 minutes ago, RLC said:

My read on the Jets, and Jags, is this.

They spent 2 years clearly cap space and acquiring picks. They've had multiple 1sts + high picks (top 3) to do whatever they wanted. It's significantly easier picking players when you have more draft ammo than every other team. They also plugged in holes in free agency. That's not to say I disliked their drafts, but it's easier to take Etienne in RD1 or trade-up for Vera-Tucker when you have picks that no one else does.

I thought the Jags did a pretty poor job overall. Etienne at 25 was bad. 

15 minutes ago, austinfan said:

Williams has a high floor, at worst you have a bigger, more athletic Vinnie Curry. Who didn't have a bad career.

People are way too optimistic in their "at worst” opinions or a prospect’s floor. His worst is a lot lower than a more athletic Vinny Curry. 

2 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

People are way too optimistic in their "at worst” opinions or a prospect’s floor. His worst is a lot lower than a more athletic Vinny Curry. 

I guess the worst for a 3rd round pick is sort of what happened with Rasul Douglas — never start, don’t see the field very much, get torched a few times, and out the door 

4 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I thought the Jags did a pretty poor job overall. Etienne at 25 was bad. 

IMO, that was a trade-down spot if they wanted another RB. They should have gone OL/DL. And I like Etienne.

1 hour ago, Ace Nova said:

Let's have some fun in here today...

Favorite draft pick?

Best value?

Favoriete UDF?

 

 

Favorite: Devonta Smith -  I think we will see immediate production from him.  I just hope he stays healthy. 

Best Value: Milton Williams - I think the case can be made for Gainwell but as much as he looks like an upgrade on Boston Scott, often RB's like Gainwell take time to adjust to the pro game. He may take time to learn the offense and adjust to NFL speed.  I think Williams will have real value as a 4th DT.  He may be a better fit from an athletic standpoint than Ridgeway is currently.  

Favorite UDF: Jamie Newman - I think he would have been drafted if he hadn't opted out of the 2020 season.  He has a strong arm. He is mobile.  He needs to improve his accuracy and will be a project but he may be a decent developmental prospect that could end up looking like a marginal NFL starter.  

 

4 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

People are way too optimistic in their "at worst” opinions or a prospect’s floor. His worst is a lot lower than a more athletic Vinny Curry. 

Any player can flop (especially with injuries), but certain attributes suggest a high floor.

College production - check. Size and athleticism, check, intangibles, check.

Biggest issue is position fit, which is why I pointed to Curry who was never really a starter but played a lot of snaps b/c he wasn't a 3 down DE nor big enough for DT.

2 minutes ago, RLC said:

IMO, that was a trade-down spot if they wanted another RB. They should have gone OL/DL. And I like Etienne.

Or just not take a RB high and roll with James Robinson cheap. 

1 minute ago, Alphagrand said:

I guess the worst for a 3rd round pick is sort of what happened with Rasul Douglas — never start, don’t see the field very much, get torched a few times, and out the door 

Fair comparison.

I think it could be even worse though...think Bryan Smith or Daniel Te'o-Nesheim level of worst possible outcome.

That doesn't mean I think this will be the case with Williams, but one can just never really be certain until the pads go on.   

 

 

6 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

People are way too optimistic in their "at worst” opinions or a prospect’s floor. His worst is a lot lower than a more athletic Vinny Curry. 

True in both directions.  Ceiling and floor assessments are generally lazy. Some guys keep developing into great players. Obviously doesn't happen often but it happens

1 minute ago, austinfan said:

Any player can flop (especially with injuries), but certain attributes suggest a high floor.

College production - check. Size and athleticism, check, intangibles, check.

Biggest issue is position fit, which is why I pointed to Curry who was never really a starter but played a lot of snaps b/c he wasn't a 3 down DE nor big enough for DT.

Position fit and short arms are a path to failing, no doubt. And Curry was good enough to play 10 years on the league, earning a couple of nice contracts along the way. Williams is no lock for that. 

3 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

I think if you dont want to, you just complain how he missed and passed on every CB we wanted, didnt draft any safety, and didnt draft any real LBs.

If you wanted to be objective you say he drafted a bunch of nice players that should contribute and thats a successful draft. You realize you cant fill every need in the draft all at once. And you figure he did pretty well this year, lets see if he can do it again next year.

 

You CAN come away with a more favorable opinion, if you wanted to.

I agree, you can look at this draft and come away favorable or unfavorable depending on how you look at it.  I had a negative mindset most of the weekend but I'm giving these guys the benefit of the doubt because there are some exciting prospects.   There are picks I look back on and still think there were other players on the board I would rather have but this is the draft class we have and there are definitely things to like.

My issue with Howie, and I said this last night, is that the Eagles don't have a consistent draft philosophy.  The theme this year was drafting tough guys with grit who love ball.  The theme last year was drafting guys who tested really well.  We've had drafts where the focus was on college production. 

The only consistent draft philosophy with the Eagles is they view the 2nd and 3rd round as a chance to take risks and projects, they love tweeners who they can possibly switch positions and round 6 and 7 is where you find your starters.

Again, look at the Ravens, Steelers, Chiefs, Patriots, Seahawks, Cowboys and soon to be Browns.  You know exactly the kind of player they are going to draft.  This is why they are continually (outside of Dallas and Cleveland)  among the most successful teams in the NFL.  They have a draft system and they stick to it.  It doesn't change year in and year out.  

 

 

4 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

LOL.  That’s a lot he missed on.   You CAN speak him having a good draft into existence if really you wanted to.  Much like posters trying to speak it into existence that Hurts will be a good starting QB, after 3+ up and down games.  But there’s just more of the same with Howie and this draft.   I’ll elaborate in a few.  

You cant speak it in to being a nice draft. You have to wait and see how the players do. It looks like it could be a really good draft. Have to wait and see. But everyone expected him to F it up, and what he did was get a bunch of nice players. 

2 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

I agree, you can look at this draft and come away favorable or unfavorable depending on how you look at it.  I had a negative mindset most of the weekend but I'm giving these guys the benefit of the doubt because there are some exciting prospects.   There are picks I look back on and still think there were other players on the board I would rather have but this is the draft class we have and there are definitely things to like.

My issue with Howie, and I said this last night, is that the Eagles don't have a consistent draft philosophy.  The theme this year was drafting tough guys with grit who love ball.  The theme last year was drafting guys who tested really well.  We've had drafts where the focus was on college production. 

The only consistent draft philosophy with the Eagles is they view the 2nd and 3rd round as a chance to take risks and projects, they love tweeners who they can possibly switch positions and round 6 and 7 is where you find your starters.

Again, look at the Ravens, Steelers, Chiefs, Patriots, Seahawks, Cowboys and soon to be Browns.  You know exactly the kind of player they are going to draft.  This is why they are continually (outside of Dallas and Cleveland)  among the most successful teams in the NFL.  They have a draft system and they stick to it.  It doesn't change year in and year out.  

 

 

I hope we sign Nelson at CB, and then imo all can be forgiven. Otherwise we have to count on Zech being starter quality right away and thats just very unlikely. 

However, the pick that I will have my eye on the most is this DE > LB convert. I think he doesnt even make the team. In comparison I am going to watch Shaka Tony. My ideal role for him was as a 3rd down pass rusher, and a JOKER on other downs. It seems, with Ostman in the past, Gerard Avery, and now this guy, we have that JOKER role in mind. IMO, Toney was the perfect late round prospect to make that conversion. I realize this DE we drafted already played some droppign in to coverage. But hes still a DE convert. And Toney is a far faaar better athlete. I really would prefer to see him in this role. Ill be comparing them and if Toney becomes a player Ill be very critical of that. 

2 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

You cant speak it in to being a nice draft. You have to wait and see how the players do. It looks like it could be a really good draft. Have to wait and see. But everyone expected him to F it up, and what he did was get a bunch of nice players. 

Do you actually anticipate anything but a negative response? No matter what the outcome of the draft, some people are always going to complain and try to rationalize.....thank goodness there is only a handful of the truly negative people who post

My approach to the rebuild is "wait n see" so I am reserving judgement until I actually see players on the field....

1 minute ago, aptosbird said:

Do you actually anticipate anything but a negative response? No matter what the outcome of the draft, some people are always going to complain and try to rationalize.....thank goodness there is only a handful of the truly negative people who post

My approach to the rebuild is "wait n see" so I am reserving judgement until I actually see players on the field....

Honestly you typically get more blindly positive people than negative.  Obviously none of it means anything until we see the guys play

20 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

I agree, you can look at this draft and come away favorable or unfavorable depending on how you look at it.  I had a negative mindset most of the weekend but I'm giving these guys the benefit of the doubt because there are some exciting prospects.   There are picks I look back on and still think there were other players on the board I would rather have but this is the draft class we have and there are definitely things to like.

My issue with Howie, and I said this last night, is that the Eagles don't have a consistent draft philosophy.  The theme this year was drafting tough guys with grit who love ball.  The theme last year was drafting guys who tested really well.  We've had drafts where the focus was on college production. 

The only consistent draft philosophy with the Eagles is they view the 2nd and 3rd round as a chance to take risks and projects, they love tweeners who they can possibly switch positions and round 6 and 7 is where you find your starters.

Again, look at the Ravens, Steelers, Chiefs, Patriots, Seahawks, Cowboys and soon to be Browns.  You know exactly the kind of player they are going to draft.  This is why they are continually (outside of Dallas and Cleveland)  among the most successful teams in the NFL.  They have a draft system and they stick to it.  It doesn't change year in and year out.  

So I absolutely agree with your comments above in principle.   

There is no doubt it has seemed the Eagles have flip flopped from year to year concerning their draft strategy.  For all of Howie's talk of wanting to be the Ravens / Steelers, and all of the people Howie has brought in from the Ravens / Steelers organizations over the past decade he has been in power...he has never consistently been able to capture and implement the actual approach of the Ravens / Steelers year over year over year.   

And it isn't even entirely fair to blame Howie 100% for this.    Think back to how badly the 2011 draft was bungled because Andy Reid decided to use the draft to try and fill the current roster holes at that time.

**********************

However, from a glass half full perspective, I will say that I feel that the Eagles 2021 draft might be the MOST Raven / Steelers like draft in years.   Not super sexy, but just solid all the way thru, with no real shocking or surprise picks.    A good balance of big time program performance with athleticism that should be good enough to play in the NFL.   Yes, the Eagles took some risks, but they were at least calculated and rational.   The Ravens and Steelers also take calculated risks.

I suspect this is because Andy Weidl and his Scouts were given authority and deference in this draft that wasn't there in previous years.  I am speculating mainly due to Lurie and Roseman knowing how badly they looked going into this draft after the Wentz fiasco and multiple questionable / blown picks in recent years, along with the decade+ cumulative failures at CB and WR.   The Athletic article just put the icing on the cake of dysfunction.

Weidl cut his teeth learning from the Ravens and Steelers organizations.   So it would make sense that a draft that was really orchestrated by Weidl and his scouts would look more like a Ravens / Steelers draft than a typical Eagles draft.

JMO.

This draft is similar to many of Howie's pre-SB drafts.

And the emphasis on lines is very Eagles, going back to AR, on O-line, heavily influenced by Mudd and Stoutland.

The emphasis on speed last year was mostly after pick #100, Taylor, Hightower, Watkins, Bradley, but even then, Wallace, Driscoll and Toohill were "traditional" Eagle picks.

This year was a shift back to the "core" Eagles philosophy, which was always heavy on intangibles (work ethic, motor).

The real difference was resisting the temptation to draft for need and take the BPA. Hopefully, that becomes a core philosophy.

I think that reflects both rebuilding, and a coaching staff more comfortable with rookies and projects - not just the players you draft, but the players you have to plug in when you don't draft for need.

2 hours ago, Rhinoddd50 said:

I think most of us here respect the Ravens and Steelers organizations for their stability and consistent approach to the NFL Draft over multiple decades now.

Ozzie Newsome (and now Eric DeCosta) had / have a general philosophy for the NFL Draft that they have both mentioned / repeated over the years when interviewed about their general drafting philosophy during that timeframe.   Paraphrasing, it went something like "Don't try to hit Home Runs, try to consistently hit Doubles," especially when picking lower in Round 1, or the later rounds.

This is a fantastic article from 2014 that is still worth reading today...and includes quotes from Newsome, DeCosta, Daniel Jeremiah (who was a Ravens scout at one time), Gil Brandt, Russ Lande, etc.   It really helps level set expectations for how success can be defined for a typical draft...and how much luck can sometimes be involved even for the best drafting organizations...  

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bs-sp-ravens-draft-results-0504-20140503-34-story.html

 

 

 

 

their drafts were meh this yr

Chargers and Denver killed it imho

 

2 hours ago, Rhinoddd50 said:

I think most of us here respect the Ravens and Steelers organizations for their stability and consistent approach to the NFL Draft over multiple decades now.

Ozzie Newsome (and now Eric DeCosta) had / have a general philosophy for the NFL Draft that they have both mentioned / repeated over the years when interviewed about their general drafting philosophy during that timeframe.   Paraphrasing, it went something like "Don't try to hit Home Runs, try to consistently hit Doubles," especially when picking lower in Round 1, or the later rounds.

This is a fantastic article from 2014 that is still worth reading today...and includes quotes from Newsome, DeCosta, Daniel Jeremiah (who was a Ravens scout at one time), Gil Brandt, Russ Lande, etc.   It really helps level set expectations for how success can be defined for a typical draft...and how much luck can sometimes be involved even for the best drafting organizations...  

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bs-sp-ravens-draft-results-0504-20140503-34-story.html

 

Thanks.  Nice to see you around again.