EMB Blog: 2021 Training Camp / Preseason

[NCiggles]

24 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

Who are the recent teams built through free agency that achieved championship success? 

Did Tampa sign FA QB last season? 

[RememberTheKoy]

22 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Philadelphia Eagles

 

That's was a team that was largely built through a core of players it drafted. 

[Alphagrand]

3 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

They had a historically bad defense.  Parsons may help but LB was probably their strongest unit on defense.  It's also not like Quinn has had a great record as a defensive coach.  His teams were in the bottom half of the League in 4 out of the 6 seasons he was coaching in Atlanta.  They were in the bottom half of the league his last 3 seasons.  They have nothing at DT and their best DE, Lawrence, hasn't been anything but average over the last 2 seasons.  I'm not saying they can't be better.  I think they have significant talent problems on that side of the ball.  Of course, everyone thinks they are going to easily win the division.  

 

That defense is still gonna be bad and they will be playing a lot of 38-34 games this season.  That isn't the formula for a 12-13 win season.

[RememberTheKoy]

14 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

2017 Eagles supplemented their drafted pieces with free agents.   

Offensively: Brooks, Peters (trade), Blount, Ajayi (trade), Jeffery, Smith
Defensively: Bradham, Jenkins, McLeod, Long, Robinson, Darby (trade)

There might be some others... Jake Elliott was technically a FA as well.

 

Supplemented.  Not built with.  Circles back to my point that the core of the Eagles defense is all 30 and older and they desperately need to retain their draft picks to rebuild the defense through the draft. 

4 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

Did Tampa sign FA QB last season? 

 

They signed the greatest QB ever to add to a talented team they had built through the draft.  The Eagles are not a QB away from contending, especially in the next couple years when the defense is going to fall off the side of a cliff due to no young talent to build around. 

[Iggles_Phan]

6 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

He has a history of maturity and resilience at Alabama.  Probably just makes him work harder.  He mastered Lincoln Riley’s offense pretty quickly.  I doubt we have to worry a bit about Hurts’ mindset. 

Yep.  He skewered the Big 12 defenses... not that they actually play defense in the Big 12.   Riley's system is very good... for college success.  

 

The real question about Hurts is whether or not he can learn to be an NFL QB, not whether or not he was a good college QB.  His game is deficient in some pretty important areas for being an NFL QB.  We'll see what he shows this year, but last year's trial was not an encouraging one for Hurts learning to play in the NFL.  His 4 games last year was just an extension of his college career.  Maybe that's all on Doug, or maybe its a split between Doug, Taylor and Hurts.  But, Hurts needs to learn to read a defense more efficiently, throw the ball on time, and rely on his arm (and head) more than his legs.   Hopefully he can do that.

[RememberTheKoy]

Just now, Iggles_Phan said:

Yep.  He skewered the Big 12 defenses... not that they actually play defense in the Big 12.   Riley's system is very good... for college success.  

 

The real question about Hurts is whether or not he can learn to be an NFL QB, not whether or not he was a good college QB.  His game is deficient in some pretty important areas for being an NFL QB.  We'll see what he shows this year, but last year's trial was not an encouraging one for Hurts learning to play in the NFL.  His 4 games last year was just an extension of his college career.  Maybe that's all on Doug, or maybe its a split between Doug, Taylor and Hurts.  But, Hurts needs to learn to read a defense more efficiently, throw the ball on time, and rely on his arm (and head) more than his legs.   Hopefully he can do that.

 

Hurts had some great timing throws.  Something we rarely saw from Wentz actually. 

[Swoop]

1 hour ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

You know what really doesn't work then? Ramping up the difficulty by giving that GM less high value draft picks and less cap space. 

And Roseman is middle of the road as a drafter.  He's not great but he also isn't as awful as people like you make him out to be.  Also very funny how someone like you who feels Roseman can't do any right whatsoever is suddenly going to be able to build a team with limited resources but he will only be able to do so once he has limited resources. 

2016:

Wentz, Seumalo, Smallwood, Vaitai, Countess, Mills, McCalister, Walker

2017:

Barnett, Jones, Douglas, Hollins, Pumphrey, Gibson, Gerry, Qualls

2018:

Goedert, Maddox, Sweat, Pryor, Mailata

2019:

Dillard, Sanders, JJaw, Miller, Thorson 

I'm leaving 2020 and 2021 off because obviously rookies and players in year two will be on the roster more times than not. Aside from that, with those 4 drafts we have managed:

An okay guard, an okay defensive end, a good tight end, a good running back, potentially a great tackle and a nice rotational DE. That's it. Six players worth keeping in 4 drafts, most of which are nothing special.

Howie is terrible at drafting.

[BigEFly]

17 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I’m surprised watson wouldn’t want to sign it. Florio made it sound like buzbee didn’t want too. If I’m watson i wouldn’t care what people thought at this point cause they already most likely made their mind up. 

Those complaints could be he propositioned them for prostitution.  It could be he exposed himself or they were touched by his P.  Since he was getting a groin muscle massage because that was the muscle he had pulled, that is pretty hard to avoid.  Filing a complaint can be anything.  Note the article doesn’t say what.  As of this date, HPD has filed any charges. It’s a move by Buzbee.   Very telling that it is the plaintiff that wants the confidentiality clause.  Think of why they might make that demand when if they go to court, they have to prove their claims?  Could it be how low they are willing to settle for which could paint this to appear like an extortion?  Hardin has already asserted that there was consensual sex with some women.  Consensual can also include prostitution. The whole thing smells.

[Iggles_Phan]

1 minute ago, RememberTheKoy said:

Supplemented.  Not built with.  Circles back to my point that the core of the Eagles defense is all 30 and older and they desperately need to retain their draft picks to rebuild the defense through the draft. 

You'll get no argument from me regarding a move for Watson.  I wouldn't do it.  

 

But, at the same time, there is nothing out there that says that a move for Watson would require 3 first round picks all in the same year.  In fact, quite to the contrary as that would be a very irregular situation for an NFL team to have.  Bidding for Watson against Miami is easy, as the Eagles already control the Miami first round pick in 2022.  So, if Miami were to offer 3 firsts, they'd be in 2023, 2024, and 2025.  The Eagles could top that trade offer significantly by offering 2022, 2023 and 2024 first round picks, and be left with 2 first round picks in 2022 (assuming the Wentz pick conveys).  And with that, they can use one to draft a player and try to flip one for a pick in 2023, and a 2nd round pick in 2022.  Losing some value along the way, but getting a QB back.   There's nothing out there that says that the Eagles MUST send all 3 first round picks in the same year.

 

And remember, future picks are usually looked at as being worth about a round lower in value... i.e. a 1st in 2023 = 2nd in 2022.  So, would Miami really even be offering 1 first round pick?  Not exactly, Houston in that case would have to be taking the very long view.

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

33 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Did he?   There are rumors about that but no real proof.  McVay gets anointed this wonder boy coach but really has little to back that up.  Now Nick Sirianni, that is a wonder boy coach that will make Jalen Hurts look like the next Tom Brady.

I’m almost positive there a entire USA Today story on Goff’s inability to read a defense when mcvay got there. (Based off searching there was another article alluding to mcvay saying that again in April this year). I believe the USA Today was published around the time when the eagles were out there in 2017 cause of the whole wentz and Goff storyline. Also Goff was one of the worst quarterback throwing the ball after pre-snap motion in 2020 which a lot of mcvay’s offense is predicated on pre-snap motion 

https://www.turfshowtimes.com/2021/6/15/22532986/rams-news-nfl-goff-stafford

I like sirianni but who’s proven nothing as a head coach. Had luck and rivers who were already established players when the colts offense had his two best years as OC is a little much to be considered wonder boy. I like sirianni as a guy to work with young talent (particularly WR) but that’s a bit much to him refer to him as a wonder boy. Meanwhile mcvay had Goff who looked like crap his rookie year and helped develop him into at least competent enough to  get to a super bowl. And was instrumental in the development cousins from a 3rd round pick into being a nfl starting QB. I don’t think mcvay is the greatest thing since slice bread but I’m betting mcvay’s offense would’ve looked much better with rivers and luck starting for the Rams than Goff.

(sorry i didn’t know that was sarcasm if it was)

[Iggles_Phan]

3 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

Hurts had some great timing throws.  Something we rarely saw from Wentz actually. 

Hurts had a couple of throws where he went to his first read quickly.   He had plenty more where the first read was there, and he hesitated until it wasn't there anymore.  

 

And what does Wentz have to do with this conversation at this point?  He's gone.  Comparing the two is irrelevant now.  The Eagles extracted the value they could from him, and moved on.  Time for you to move on.  It isn't about Hurts vs. Wentz anymore.  It is about how good Hurts can be, and whether or not that is good enough.

[Alphagrand]

1 minute ago, Swoop said:

2016:

Wentz, Seumalo, Smallwood, Vaitai, Countess, Mills, McCalister, Walker

2017:

Barnett, Jones, Douglas, Hollins, Pumphrey, Gibson, Gerry, Qualls

2018:

Goedert, Maddox, Sweat, Pryor, Mailata

2019:

Dillard, Sanders, JJaw, Miller, Thorson 

I'm leaving 2020 and 2021 off because obviously rookies and players in year two will be on the roster more times than not. Aside from that, with those 4 drafts we have managed:

An okay guard, an okay defensive end, a good tight end, a good running back, potentially a great tackle and a nice rotational DE. That's it. Six players worth keeping in 4 drafts, most of which are nothing special.

Howie is terrible at drafting.

I would classify the bolded selections as especially bad, or way too much risk (Jones).  Didn't like picking Barnett at #14 either with CB such a glaring need, and it forced their hand when it came to the next 2 selections, which cascaded into a terrible draft as a whole.

[dawkdaballhawk]

13 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

Did Tampa sign FA QB last season? 

It was the long con draft

[Iggles_Phan]

1 hour ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

You know what really doesn't work then? Ramping up the difficulty by giving that GM less high value draft picks and less cap space. 

And Roseman is middle of the road as a drafter.  He's not great but he also isn't as awful as people like you make him out to be.  Also very funny how someone like you who feels Roseman can't do any right whatsoever is suddenly going to be able to build a team with limited resources but he will only be able to do so once he has limited resources. 

Conflating discussions.  There is the discussion about how to build a team... draft, free agency, some combo (leaning whichever way you choose)... 

and then there is the discussion about whether or not Howie should still be in his current position, since there is a significant amount of data to say that his drafting his sub-par.  

4 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I’m almost positive there a entire USA Today story on Goff’s inability to read a defense when mcvay got there. (Based off searching there was another article alluding to mcvay saying that again in April this year). I believe the USA Today was published around the time when the eagles were out there in 2017 cause of the whole wentz and Goff storyline. Also Goff was one of the worst quarterback throwing the ball after pre-snap motion in 2020 which a lot of mcvay’s offense is predicated on pre-snap motion 

https://www.turfshowtimes.com/2021/6/15/22532986/rams-news-nfl-goff-stafford

Hold up sirianni who’s proven nothing as a head coach. Had luck and rivers who were already established players when the colts offense had his two best years as OC is considered wonder boy now? I like sirianni but that’s a bit much to him as a wonder boy. Meanwhile mcvay had Goff who looked like crap his rookie year and helped develop him into at least competent enough to  get to a super bowl. And was instrumental in the development cousins from a 3rd round pick into being a nfl starting QB. I don’t think mcvay is the greatest thing since slice bread but I’m better mcvay would’ve looked better with rivers and luck starting for the Rams than Goff. 

I assumed the comment regarding Sirianni was sarcasm.

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Conflating discussions.  There is the discussion about how to build a team... draft, free agency, some combo (leaning whichever way you choose)... 

and then there is the discussion about whether or not Howie should still be in his current position, since there is a significant amount of data to say that his drafting his sub-par.  

I assumed the comment regarding Sirianni was sarcasm.

I probably missed that. Lol 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Swoop said:

2016:

Wentz, Seumalo, Smallwood, Vaitai, Countess, Mills, McCalister, Walker

2017:

Barnett, Jones, Douglas, Hollins, Pumphrey, Gibson, Gerry, Qualls

2018:

Goedert, Maddox, Sweat, Pryor, Mailata

2019:

Dillard, Sanders, JJaw, Miller, Thorson 

Bolded is who I project to still be on the roster week 1.  8 of 26.  Not good drafting.

2016 - 2017 is especially bad.  These guys should all be hitting the peak of their career, and we have 2 of 16 still on the roster.

[RememberTheKoy]

6 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

You'll get no argument from me regarding a move for Watson.  I wouldn't do it.  

 

But, at the same time, there is nothing out there that says that a move for Watson would require 3 first round picks all in the same year.  In fact, quite to the contrary as that would be a very irregular situation for an NFL team to have.  Bidding for Watson against Miami is easy, as the Eagles already control the Miami first round pick in 2022.  So, if Miami were to offer 3 firsts, they'd be in 2023, 2024, and 2025.  The Eagles could top that trade offer significantly by offering 2022, 2023 and 2024 first round picks, and be left with 2 first round picks in 2022 (assuming the Wentz pick conveys).  And with that, they can use one to draft a player and try to flip one for a pick in 2023, and a 2nd round pick in 2022.  Losing some value along the way, but getting a QB back.   There's nothing out there that says that the Eagles MUST send all 3 first round picks in the same year.

 

And remember, future picks are usually looked at as being worth about a round lower in value... i.e. a 1st in 2023 = 2nd in 2022.  So, would Miami really even be offering 1 first round pick?  Not exactly, Houston in that case would have to be taking the very long view.

 

Doesn't matter what year they fall in, that is a lot to give up for a team that needs a massive complete rebuild ont he defensive side of the ball and will need to address rebuilding the entire right side of the offensive line in the near future as well. 

[Ace Nova]

12 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Yep.  He skewered the Big 12 defenses... not that they actually play defense in the Big 12.   Riley's system is very good... for college success.  

 

The real question about Hurts is whether or not he can learn to be an NFL QB, not whether or not he was a good college QB.  His game is deficient in some pretty important areas for being an NFL QB.  We'll see what he shows this year, but last year's trial was not an encouraging one for Hurts learning to play in the NFL.  His 4 games last year was just an extension of his college career.  Maybe that's all on Doug, or maybe its a split between Doug, Taylor and Hurts.  But, Hurts needs to learn to read a defense more efficiently, throw the ball on time, and rely on his arm (and head) more than his legs.   Hopefully he can do that.

Honest question.  Would you judge Wentz by his performance in 12 games last season?   5th year QB who had similar (if not worse numbers than Hurts)?   Obviously the Colts think his 2020 season was an outlier and likely due to other factors as well. 
 

So, can you really judge Hurts in his performance in 4 games with the same team, with the same amount (or more) of injured starters out? 
 

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

6 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Bolded is who I project to still be on the roster week 1.  8 of 26.  Not good drafting.

2016 - 2017 is especially bad.  These guys should all be hitting the peak of their career, and we have 2 of 16 still on the roster.

Some of those guys might not even be here after 2021. Maddox hasn’t gotten an extension. You’d think goedert would be here but heard really nothing about that extension. Mailata, sweat and Barnett are FA at the end of the year. Dillard if he’s not good this year could be cut next offseason. 

If the eagles don’t sign some of these guys (tend to believe they do— mailata, sweat and goedert) and some don’t play wel again this year, there’a a chance from those drafts only seumalo and sanders are the only picks remaining on the 2022 roster. 

[Iggles_Phan]

3 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

Doesn't matter what year they fall in, that is a lot to give up for a team that needs a massive complete rebuild ont he defensive side of the ball and will need to address rebuilding the entire right side of the offensive line in the near future as well. 

Actually, as I pointed out... it very much does matter.  Because giving up picks in the future are valued as significantly less valuable than picks in the current year.  So, by paying with future picks, they aren't paying as much.  AND... paying with future picks would enable a crafty GM to wheel and deal a bit to recoup a significant part of that payment... similar to how Howie recouped one of the first round picks he gave up for the rights to draft Wentz, by taking advantage of the Vikings and shipping off Bradford for a 1st.  

[Iggles_Phan]

1 minute ago, Ace Nova said:

Honest question.  Would you judge Wentz by his performance in 12 games last season?   5th year QB who had similar (if not worse numbers than Hurts)?   Obviously the Colts think his 2020 season was an outlier and likely due to other factors as well. 
 

So, can you really judge Hurts in his performance in 4 games with the same team, with the same amount (or more) of injured starters out? 
 

Was Wentz not judged by his performance last season?   The answer is yes.  

 

There are questions about Wentz still because of his last season.  And the uncertainty with Wentz circles around the 'can he regain his MVP-level play from 2017' question.   Wentz proved that he could play at the NFL level.  Then he regressed.  The questions are:  Why did he regress so dramatically?  Can he rebound now that he's reunited with Reich?     But, to act like there are no questions still about Wentz is disingenuous.  

With that said, the questions about Hurts remain.  He has to prove that he can play in the NFL.   It remains to be seen.  Hurts was in a tough spot.  Wentz was in a tough spot... but questions circulate around both.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Some of those guys might not even be here after 2021. Maddox hasn’t gotten an extension. You’d think goedert would be here but heard really nothing about that extension. Mailata, sweat and Barnett are FA at the end of the year. Dillard if he’s not good this year could be cut next offseason. 

If the eagles don’t sign some of these guys (tend to believe they do— mailata, sweat and goedert) and some don’t play wel again this year, there’a a chance from those drafts only seumalo and sanders are the only picks remaining on the 2022 roster. 

2 of 26 would remain in that scenario.  That is not good at all.  Will be interesting to see the 2020 draft picks that make the final 53.

Looking back a little further, no players from the 2014 and 2015 draft class are still on the roster ( Chip ) and only 3 of the 17 from 2012 - 2013 class are still on the roster.

[RememberTheKoy]

5 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Actually, as I pointed out... it very much does matter.  Because giving up picks in the future are valued as significantly less valuable than picks in the current year.  So, by paying with future picks, they aren't paying as much.  AND... paying with future picks would enable a crafty GM to wheel and deal a bit to recoup a significant part of that payment... similar to how Howie recouped one of the first round picks he gave up for the rights to draft Wentz, by taking advantage of the Vikings and shipping off Bradford for a 1st.  

Who on this roster is Howie going to trade for a first exactly? 

[Ace Nova]

4 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Was Wentz not judged by his performance last season?   The answer is yes.  

 

There are questions about Wentz still because of his last season.  And the uncertainty with Wentz circles around the 'can he regain his MVP-level play from 2017' question.   Wentz proved that he could play at the NFL level.  Then he regressed.  The questions are:  Why did he regress so dramatically?  Can he rebound now that he's reunited with Reich?     But, to act like there are no questions still about Wentz is disingenuous.  

With that said, the questions about Hurts remain.  He has to prove that he can play in the NFL.   It remains to be seen.  Hurts was in a tough spot.  Wentz was in a tough spot... but questions circulate around both.

That’s fair enough.  Good points. 

[ManchesterEagle]

27 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

That's was a team that was largely built through a core of players it drafted. 

Combination of both. I was playing, but  I agree with you on Watson and we need to restock the D in the draft desperately.

Plus if you sign Watson, you probably need to jettison some of your best players anyway to fit under the cap.

Not going to happen for so many reasons.

We need to give Hurts a chance, because if he’s good the Eagles are in good shape