Carson Wentz and the Colts pick - officially #16 (topic closed)

[kiwieagle]

48 minutes ago, PoconoDon said:

Shame they won. Hurts the draft position, but there's always next week for the Colts to screw up.

I think the absolute best case scenario for us is two top-5 picks, and then a pick in the mid-teens.That would be u and the Dolphins keep stinking, and the Colts being close but missing the playoffs.

Colts are too good and well-coached that they will remain competitive. They have had a hard schedule to date and lost to some good teams in competitive games. If their season goes South to a level they are looking at a top-10 pick, it’s most likely because Wentz gets injured or falls apart like last year - both of those likely mean we aren’t getting a third first.

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

I'd rather have this guy back...

[greend]

4 hours ago, Diehardfan said:

He knows how to coach. 

FYP

[birdman#12]

The eagles have created quite a lousy problem for themselves.

First, the "QB factory" is anything but.......all the wheeling and dealing for obtaining Wentz and then eventually trading him away are the kind of moves that cost time and talent.  The inexplicable and unnecessary drafting of Hurts, when they had loads of other needs, and then handing him the keys when he clearly isn't ready highlights 2 MAJOR problems.  The needs analysis for the draft and the talent evaluation.

2nd, the hiring of Nick Sirianni and his coordinators.  They have looked confused and unable to adjust during games.  The team clearly is not improving.....not winning is one thing, but they show no improvement game to game.  Their offense is painful and frustrating to watch.  The defense can't be watched because they don't show up. We were sold a bill of goods when Sirianni was described as a creative offensive mind who would balance the offense with a running game. Instead, he's put LOADS of responsibility on a 2nd year QB who wasn't ready to start.

3rd......the cap problem and paying 4 veterans who contribute very little or nothing at all.  Cox, Graham, Brooks and Johnson are not dependable or productive.  Their cap hits amount to almost $60 million next year.  Their dead money is enormous.

4th.....the illusion of the 3 first round draft picks.  When a team has a serious coaching problem, a QB problem and a cap problem, the draft just creates a false sense of hope.  Because those draft picks will be wasted to obtain another "shot in the dark" QB who will come in to "save a franchise" with a poor coaching staff......the "new" old cleveland browns.

5th.....the mind boggling and idiotic approach to linebackers.  This team has needed linebackers for 20 f------- years and never have made it to be anymore than an afterthought.  Year after year they're considered one of the worst LB corp in the NFL, but nobody in the organization seems to give a sh--.  Unbelievable.

6th.....the "gold standard" was nothing more than a phony gold plating.  Yes, they finally got a super bowl trophy, which, as time goes by, seems more and more like a true fluke.  But Lurie ended up giving Reid way too much responsibility and that deteriorated. Then he hired ChIp Kelly, with disastrous results. The came Pedersen.....and a super bowl, which looks like it was more Frank Reich than Pedersen and the eventual mess that became. Now Sirianni.......which hasn't shown much promise.

The only common thread thru all this bullsh-- has been Roseman.  I've been a defender of Roseman over the years, but the last 2 years have been indefensible.  And until Lurie decides they have to move in a new direction, this pattern of becoming the "new" old browns will continue.

[ManchesterEagle]

50 minutes ago, birdman#12 said:

The eagles have created quite a lousy problem for themselves.

First, the "QB factory" is anything but.......all the wheeling and dealing for obtaining Wentz and then eventually trading him away are the kind of moves that cost time and talent.  The inexplicable and unnecessary drafting of Hurts, when they had loads of other needs, and then handing him the keys when he clearly isn't ready highlights 2 MAJOR problems.  The needs analysis for the draft and the talent evaluation.

2nd, the hiring of Nick Sirianni and his coordinators.  They have looked confused and unable to adjust during games.  The team clearly is not improving.....not winning is one thing, but they show no improvement game to game.  Their offense is painful and frustrating to watch.  The defense can't be watched because they don't show up. We were sold a bill of goods when Sirianni was described as a creative offensive mind who would balance the offense with a running game. Instead, he's put LOADS of responsibility on a 2nd year QB who wasn't ready to start.

3rd......the cap problem and paying 4 veterans who contribute very little or nothing at all.  Cox, Graham, Brooks and Johnson are not dependable or productive.  Their cap hits amount to almost $60 million next year.  Their dead money is enormous.

4th.....the illusion of the 3 first round draft picks.  When a team has a serious coaching problem, a QB problem and a cap problem, the draft just creates a false sense of hope.  Because those draft picks will be wasted to obtain another "shot in the dark" QB who will come in to "save a franchise" with a poor coaching staff......the "new" old cleveland browns.

5th.....the mind boggling and idiotic approach to linebackers.  This team has needed linebackers for 20 f------- years and never have made it to be anymore than an afterthought.  Year after year they're considered one of the worst LB corp in the NFL, but nobody in the organization seems to give a sh--.  Unbelievable.

6th.....the "gold standard" was nothing more than a phony gold plating.  Yes, they finally got a super bowl trophy, which, as time goes by, seems more and more like a true fluke.  But Lurie ended up giving Reid way too much responsibility and that deteriorated. Then he hired ChIp Kelly, with disastrous results. The came Pedersen.....and a super bowl, which looks like it was more Frank Reich than Pedersen and the eventual mess that became. Now Sirianni.......which hasn't shown much promise.

The only common thread thru all this bullsh-- has been Roseman.  I've been a defender of Roseman over the years, but the last 2 years have been indefensible.  And until Lurie decides they have to move in a new direction, this pattern of becoming the "new" old browns will continue.

Good post. My comments:

1) Yep - I've said all along that the Hurts pick was to be a plan B to Wentz. We desperately need to add help to the D, but they took Hurts. Now I will say that Wentz's poor performance last year was on him and not the team, but it was seemingly a waste of a good draft pick. They clearly thought he was the new Russell Wilson and while I am not ready to give up on him yet, it certainly doesn't look that way.

2) Siriani has been bad, but I feel he is really struggling with Hurts. It doesn't seem like a good fit. I think he gets one more year, especially if we move on from Hurts. He does seem to at least be able to scheme receivers open. Gannon has been awful in my opinion. Such a vanilla D. Any decent QB has been able to pick it apart with ease.

3) I would say that Graham has been both dependable and productive up to his injury this year. Cox has been a massive disappointment given that he is only 30. Brooks cannot stay healthy unfortunately. Johnson I give a pass for.

4) For me the team needs to forget about QB this year. No hurry to bench Hurts. Try and pick up an extra first for 2023 and roll with Minshew next year if Hurts doesn't work out this year. The D needs a big infusion of young talent.

5) Yep. I still have some hope for Taylor, but I wouldn't be against adding one in the first. The last time we had at least half-decent linebackers we won the Super Bowl. People need to stop thinking Alex Singleton is good.

6) I wouldn't go this far. We've had some good years and we had some horrendous injuries after the Super Bowl year. That was a really good team, we deserved that Super Bowl.

I've also defended Roseman at times on this board, but I agree, if things keep going as they are this year, the team really needs a new GM, particularly with all the draft picks.

[Iggles_Phan]

At the beginning of the year, I thought that the Lions' game was one of the few games that I was confident that this team would win.  At this point, I have a hard time believing that this team can actually win that game.  Detroit has scrapped and come close so many times already this year, and I don't mean falling behind big and getting meaningless scores to make it close at the end, I mean actually leading in the 4th quarter and managing to lose at the end.  (That's what I thought this team would actually be as they got to 5 wins this season, rather than the straight up embarrassment they have become.) I don't see this upcoming game as one that the Eagles can actually win.  I think the Lions will finally break through Sunday and get their first win.  And frankly, if that doesn't shake up Jeffery, nothing will.  I guess the saving grace for Jeffery is that it wouldn't be yet another home loss, that will have to wait until Nov. 7th when the Chargers come to town.   Frankly, there is a real possibility that this team goes 0-8 at home this season.  I can't remember the last time this team failed to win a home game.  I guess they could win that game against Dallas in the final week, because I don't see that game meaning anything to Dallas as far as the division goes.  It might for seeding though.  Would Dallas play their starters in that game for the 2 seed versus being the 4 seed?   And would it even matter if they did pull their starters?

[Iggles_Phan]

6 hours ago, kiwieagle said:

I think the absolute best case scenario for us is two top-5 picks, and then a pick in the mid-teens.That would be u and the Dolphins keep stinking, and the Colts being close but missing the playoffs.

Colts are too good and well-coached that they will remain competitive. They have had a hard schedule to date and lost to some good teams in competitive games. If their season goes South to a level they are looking at a top-10 pick, it’s most likely because Wentz gets injured or falls apart like last year - both of those likely mean we aren’t getting a third first.

Wentz fell apart as the team around him fell apart.  How quickly we forget that the OL around him was Jamon Brown, Brett Toth and Matt Pryor for stretches, his top receiving targets were a guy who has since been cut (Fulgham) and a guy who should have been (Ward).   But, sure, let's continue to pretend that Wentz was the problem with this team last year.   Now that he's gone, all should be well and the QB that they stupidly drafted in the 2nd round 'to be a backup' is just tearing it up each week.

 

Eagles screwed up big time, and the guy who screwed it up remains in place.  Everyone else has been scapegoated.    Now, the argument is that 'Wentz wanted out, he wasn't going to play here any more.'  And that's true, but it's only true because of the way this organization botched things up.  And it didn't start in 2020... they've been screwing it up since 2018.  But, we still have Howie... and Lurie still thinks this organization and this structure is 'good' and 'respected' around the league.  He's self-deluded.

[Iggles_Phan]

1 hour ago, birdman#12 said:

The only common thread thru all this bullsh-- has been Roseman.  I've been a defender of Roseman over the years, but the last 2 years have been indefensible.  And until Lurie decides they have to move in a new direction, this pattern of becoming the "new" old browns will continue.

AND Lurie.

[wyote]

Lurie and Roseman are also the common threads in the Super Bowl. If they win more than one every 32 years, they're better than we could expect. I'm sure Lurie wants this team to win more than most TATErs do. 

 

 

[Iggles_Phan]

1 minute ago, wyote said:

Lurie and Roseman are also the common threads in the Super Bowl. If they win more than one every 32 years, they're better than we could expect. I'm sure Lurie wants this team to win more than most TATErs do. 

I think Lurie wants to make money and be in control of the organization and be 'respected' around the NFL more than he wants to win.  

 

The "TATErs" are the ones who shell out money to support this team... win, lose or draw, and I can't speak for everyone, but I do enjoy my investment in that entertainment far more when they win, then when they look completely and totally inept.    Lurie, on the other hand, makes money no matter what the outcome.  He's not sacrificing something else that he could invest his money in to watch this team... he's getting PAID to have the team go out and suck.  So, I call BS on that last bit.   

As for the first part, Lurie and Roseman got lucky with that Super Bowl.  It wasn't the culmination of a carefully orchestrated plan.  They considered firing the OC right before that season, and potentially the HC as well.  They filled the roster with a lot of one year vets to fill out the roster.  And then, they caught lightning in a bottle.  Ever since then, we watched as they carefully and meticulously tried to maintain that magic only to dig a hole ever increasingly deeper with each transaction.  Their plan never worked the way they intended it to work.  

 

And if you just pull the anomalous 2017 year out of the last 12 years... Since 2009, this team has 1 playoff victory.  And that was a playoff victory that required a double doink off the upright cross bar to narrowly beat a bad Bears team.   In other words, the blind squirrels found a nut.  It happens, just quite infrequently.

[birdman#12]

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

AND Lurie.

But the Roseman situation is fixable.......Lurie is the owner and not going anywhere.  Yes, he has allowed this situation to evolve, but he's proven he wants to win.....he really enjoyed the spotlight the super bowl win brought.  He just needs to realize that a new approach is needed, not just for coaching, but for player personnel decisions.

[Iggles_Phan]

2 minutes ago, birdman#12 said:

But the Roseman situation is fixable.......Lurie is the owner and not going anywhere.  Yes, he has allowed this situation to evolve, but he's proven he wants to win.....he really enjoyed the spotlight the super bowl win brought.  He just needs to realize that a new approach is needed, not just for coaching, but for player personnel decisions.

Putting a different puppet into the GM chair isn't really going to 'fix' anything.  For the change to really happen, Jeffery needs to recognize that he is a major part of the problem and that his philosophy is what's causing trouble.   He needs to 'open his heart' to actually hiring a true 'football guy' to run the organization and not his pet accountant.

Of course, Lurie wants to win, but he also wants to win his way.  And therein lies a big part of the problem.  The idea that he would be upset with a win over the Packers where they were underdogs on the road, because they ran the ball too much just wreaks of hubris.  

[Ipiggles]

7 hours ago, mihailo said:

 

we knew, and that toxicity starts with the QB factory GM Howie Roseman

[birdman#12]

4 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Putting a different puppet into the GM chair isn't really going to 'fix' anything.  For the change to really happen, Jeffery needs to recognize that he is a major part of the problem and that his philosophy is what's causing trouble.   He needs to 'open his heart' to actually hiring a true 'football guy' to run the organization and not his pet accountant.

Of course, Lurie wants to win, but he also wants to win his way.  And therein lies a big part of the problem.  The idea that he would be upset with a win over the Packers where they were underdogs on the road, because they ran the ball too much just wreaks of hubris.  

I agree with your assessment, if in fact, Lurie is forcing his idea on how he wants to win on the personnel decision making.  But is that really true?  I don't trust the philly media to report that accurately......and most all NFL teams are looking for that high powered offense by hiring the younger "innovative" coaches.  

 

[kiwieagle]

7 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Wentz fell apart as the team around him fell apart.  How quickly we forget that the OL around him was Jamon Brown, Brett Toth and Matt Pryor for stretches, his top receiving targets were a guy who has since been cut (Fulgham) and a guy who should have been (Ward).   But, sure, let's continue to pretend that Wentz was the problem with this team last year.   Now that he's gone, all should be well and the QB that they stupidly drafted in the 2nd round 'to be a backup' is just tearing it up each week.

 

Eagles screwed up big time, and the guy who screwed it up remains in place.  Everyone else has been scapegoated.    Now, the argument is that 'Wentz wanted out, he wasn't going to play here any more.'  And that's true, but it's only true because of the way this organization botched things up.  And it didn't start in 2020... they've been screwing it up since 2018.  But, we still have Howie... and Lurie still thinks this organization and this structure is 'good' and 'respected' around the league.  He's self-deluded.

Two things on this

1) I agree with you. A lot of our issues last year were due to PS guys playing around Wentz and the Eagles totally f'ed up drafting Hurts. Was never a fan of the pick and if you read any of my posts, I always say Howie is the biggest issue and needs to go - he is the guy primarily responsible for our fall of a cliff post SB.

2) I'm not going to absolve Wentz for his role in what went down last year either - he didn't handle the Hurts pick the right way and did force his way out of town - as a fan of the Eagles, that irks me. His play last year was a mix of his supporting cast but he was also in his own head,  and the declining play / trying to do much lept spiraling out of control. The guy has always had the talent and lest not forget he also played with PS guys in 2019 - and elevated his own play to carry them down the stretch. 2020 not so much - quite the opposite

[mihailo]

At the end of the day 'the proof is in the pudding'. This is a poor pudding.

Whoever is responsible for: drafting, the cap, hiring, contracts and trades is absolutely trash for several years now. I am not pointing fingers  but that person needs to go. 

[Diehardfan]

3 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

At the beginning of the year, I thought that the Lions' game was one of the few games that I was confident that this team would win.  At this point, I have a hard time believing that this team can actually win that game.  Detroit has scrapped and come close so many times already this year, and I don't mean falling behind big and getting meaningless scores to make it close at the end, I mean actually leading in the 4th quarter and managing to lose at the end.  (That's what I thought this team would actually be as they got to 5 wins this season, rather than the straight up embarrassment they have become.) I don't see this upcoming game as one that the Eagles can actually win.  I think the Lions will finally break through Sunday and get their first win.  And frankly, if that doesn't shake up Jeffery, nothing will.  I guess the saving grace for Jeffery is that it wouldn't be yet another home loss, that will have to wait until Nov. 7th when the Chargers come to town.   Frankly, there is a real possibility that this team goes 0-8 at home this season.  I can't remember the last time this team failed to win a home game.  I guess they could win that game against Dallas in the final week, because I don't see that game meaning anything to Dallas as far as the division goes.  It might for seeding though.  Would Dallas play their starters in that game for the 2 seed versus being the 4 seed?   And would it even matter if they did pull their starters?

I love the team but sometimes those you care about need to hit rock bottom to see they have a problem and make changes. I'd love to see them lose every game but the Cowboys so Jeffery realizes just how much he has screwed the organization up. No winning some games at the end so they can say they were on an upward swing. Lose and realize from the top down they need major changes and he needs to back away like Jerry did in Dallas. Almost losing out probably wouldn't be enough for him to wake up but that's my hope. If nothing else they end up with a pick high enough that a good player falls in their lap.

[Iggles_Phan]

10 hours ago, kiwieagle said:

Two things on this

1) I agree with you. A lot of our issues last year were due to PS guys playing around Wentz and the Eagles totally f'ed up drafting Hurts. Was never a fan of the pick and if you read any of my posts, I always say Howie is the biggest issue and needs to go - he is the guy primarily responsible for our fall of a cliff post SB.

2) I'm not going to absolve Wentz for his role in what went down last year either - he didn't handle the Hurts pick the right way and did force his way out of town - as a fan of the Eagles, that irks me. His play last year was a mix of his supporting cast but he was also in his own head,  and the declining play / trying to do much lept spiraling out of control. The guy has always had the talent and lest not forget he also played with PS guys in 2019 - and elevated his own play to carry them down the stretch. 2020 not so much - quite the opposite

Did I absolve him, or did I say 'he fell apart'?  

But, the person who started this whole process in motion is the one that should be gone, and is still here with job security.   Gross.

[EazyEaglez]

9 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Did I absolve him, or did I say 'he fell apart'?  

But, the person who started this whole process in motion is the one that should be gone, and is still here with job security.   Gross.

That guy survived four… now maybe five coaches. Just plain insanity. 

[It Hurts]

QBs with the highest rating in the AFC
1.Joe Burrow 108.9
2.Josh Allen 103.6
3. Carson Wentz 102.8
4. Derek Carr 101.2
5 Justin Herbert 98.8
6 Lamar JaCkson 97.9
7. Patrick Mahomes 97.9
8. Ryan Tannehill 89.0

[kiwieagle]

3 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Did I absolve him, or did I say 'he fell apart'?  

But, the person who started this whole process in motion is the one that should be gone, and is still here with job security.   Gross.

I have been beating that drum myself for a while now....and its not just the beyond silly Hurts pick that goes against him.

Our draft record particularly over recent years is very poor, we have mostly whiffed on our FA signings since 2017, have handed out big and long contracts that we can't easily get out of to older players who cant stay healthy, there is very little young talent on the roster, the cap is in a horrible shape, and he alienated multiple head coaches. Other than the one positive of having 3 potential 1st round picks, he has failed at every other aspect of being a GM. And based on his record of drafting, we will probably bungle those picks anyway...

[kiwieagle]

4 minutes ago, It Hurts said:

QBs with the highest rating in the AFC
1.Joe Burrow 108.9
2.Josh Allen 103.6
3. Carson Wentz 102.8
4. Derek Carr 101.2
5 Justin Herbert 98.8
6 Lamar JaCkson 97.9
7. Patrick Mahomes 97.9
8. Ryan Tannehill 89.0

This is one of those scenarios where stats look better than reality.

Wentz has been very good but not a top-3 QB in the AFC. Herbert and Jackson for example do a lot more work to carry their offence. But Wentz's always had the talent to get there and has played at that level in the past. He is clearly playing with an injury at the moment but still has been getting a little each week. Maybe Reich really is the Wentz whisperer who brings out the best in him.

[EazyEaglez]

Good news/bad news. Carson once again has finished a full game. Bad news the Cults won. They have actually beaten anyone with a winning record yet, but that’s not stopping the Wentz nut huggers from creaming all over themselves though. 😂

[matchew88]

Roseman does not have an extension. Scapegoats go up the chain and Roseman is next. For guys that position themselves well, this takes time. 

[wyote]

Only on TATE would there be unhappiness that a guy almost everyone here hated is gone and now doing just about exactly what is needed to get us a mid-1st round rather than a 2nd round pick.