EMB Blog: 2021 Regular and Post Season

[Iggles_Phan]

Just now, mattwill said:

 

Last time Im checked it is a team game, which is why I said data points in the plural rather than data point (Hurts' performance alone).  For me the Defense is much more suspect against the better QBs than Hurts is suspect against the Defenses of those better QBs' teams.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in Texas?    The defense is the weakest link on the team.   Granted.  No one is arguing otherwise.  Anything more need to be said on the topic?   Doubtful.   So, let's move to the next question... Is Hurts the long term answer?  Some want to say the jury is still out.  I believe no more information is required.  He's a fine backup QB, likely a plus backup QB, as a backup that can step in and beat a team with his legs is a nice benefit, as they likely won't have the timing with the WRs... (ironically, he's struggled with that all year, even though he's been the starter since Day 1 of OTAs).     So, that brings us to the next question:  Sirianni's offense.  Is that good enough to build around long term?  And we don't know.  I believe we saw a pretty good idea of what Sirianni wants his offense to be early in the season, but Hurts failed to operate in that offense... so Sirianni changed his offense to maximize Hurts.  Good for him.  But, is that offense sufficient in today's NFL?  I don't think so.  So, why not find out how Sirianni's offense functions when they have a QB that is more capable of operating in it?   (That said, of course, Minshew is not the long term answer either... but another very good backup to have around.)   I'd like to see what Sirianni's offense actually is, and how it operates with a traditional QB at the helm.  That is a data point worth exploring... but is one that cannot be delved into deeply while Hurts is the QB.  And frankly, the Sirianni question is a greater one than the QB.  QBs come and go, QBs get injured... coaches are much more static when you find the right one... one that can actually be a foundation.  Early returns look favorable, but I'd like to look deeper than the surface.

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

47 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

OR Phillip Rivers comes back, leads them to the playoffs and wins the Super Bowl.

Let’s get tropical

 

[Utebird]

1 hour ago, austinfan said:

The running game is better when Hurts is healthy, all you have to do is watch film and see how he freezes the DE from crashing down the line and making plays.

He forces edge players to play honest instead of cheating.

Yup and foles could do the same thing, difference is when the DE Doesnt stay home with foles he picks up 5 ,7 yards hurts meanwhile picks up 20.

The design of the play forces the DE To stay home though, whether it's hurts or Minshew.

Now guys running through gaping holes picking up 15 yards on 1st down doesn't have much to do with whose playing qb and more to do with whose at OL.

Having said that on an RPO Id reckon Hurts is more liable to more often keep on the RPO than give it /throw even if the read doesn't dictate so, just as I'd assume a qb like foles or Minshew are more likely more often going to give it throw than tuck and run even if the read dictates so.

It's nice to have a qb that can run but when that QB is running when the defense dictates pass or give it becomes detrimental to efficiency of the offense.

Too many time hurts will keep and run I stead if giving or hitting the open route or take off after his first read instead of letting a play develop for a bigger play and that kind of offense isn't sustainable against playoff caliber defenses 

[LeanMeanGM]

Just now, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Let’s get tropical

 

Apparently NFL and NFLPA are updating protocols again today, so it might come out that unvaxed players only need to miss 5 days, which means Wentz might play Sunday. 

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

Just now, LeanMeanGM said:

Apparently NFL and NFLPA are updating protocols again today, so it might come out that unvaxed players only need to miss 5 days, which means Wentz might play Sunday. 

[mattwill]

43 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

You missed the 2002 Bucs. 
 

Good point.

[Iggles_Phan]

Just now, Utebird said:

Yup and foles could do the same thing, difference is when the DE Doesnt stay home with foles he picks up 5 7 yards hurts meanwhile picks up 20.

The design of the play forces the DE To stay home though, whether it's hurts or Minshew.

Now guys running through galing holes picking up 15 yards in 1st down doesn't have much to do with whose playing qb and more to do with whose at OL.

Having said that on an RPO Id reckon Hurts is more liable to more often keep on the RPO than give it throw even if the read doesn't dictate so, just as I'd assume a qb like foles or Minshew are more likely more often going to give it throw than tuck and run even if the read dictates so.

It's nice to have a qb that can run but when that QB is running when the defense dictates pass or give it becomes detrimental to efficiency of the offense.

Too many time hurts will keep and run I stead if giving or hitting the open route or take off after his first read instead of letting a play develop for a bigger play and that kind of offense isn't sustainable against playoff caliber defenses 

Hyperbole.  How many times has that actually happened?  

[Utebird]

1 hour ago, gohabsgo said:

 

If the the eagles stay committed to running the ball, I think we can beat any team, especially if we win the turnover battle.  Our offensive line, right now, is the best I've seen it in years.  They're incredible.  It's breathtaking right now and I don't think D has been a problem outside the chiefs/cowboys game.  They came out throwing in the first half against the giants and we sucked.  just run the ball and keep it 3rd in short/manageable. 

Yup I e really enjoyed watching this offense and the O line just maul people and seeing how much the O line enjoy it.

I think it's easy to see that Siri has put the offense on the O lines hands and that they are just going to go out and mash dudes and when they do its a great feeling for them and us as fans. 

It's what football was meant to be, physically imposing ones will over opposition and Right this eagles o line is physically imposing there will and defenses haven't had many answers.

If the D can step up then the eagles with their running game could make some noise in the playoffs but if the D can't contain opposing offenses the run game will be muted.

[Utebird]

8 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Hyperbole.  How many times has that actually happened?  

Couple times, I think the majority of hurts big runs though have come on when he just runs out of the pocket on a pass not on a keeper on an RPO 

The point being though that hurts has the ability to get more yards in a rpo keep than Minshew just because hurts is a better runner.

Just like Sanders is more likely to hit a 40 yarder in a similarly blocked run over Howard because Sanders has breakaway ability where as Howard not so much, and at the same time Howard will more often take less negative plays than Sanders as well on similarly blocked plays.

 

 

[eagle45]

1 hour ago, austinfan said:

The running game is better when Hurts is healthy, all you have to do is watch film and see how he freezes the DE from crashing down the line and making plays.

He forces edge players to play honest instead of cheating.

This is true.  In 2021, this is also not a concept that any team besides the Ravens chooses to build their offense around.  We make it 2 teams.

 

[Iggles_Phan]

1 minute ago, Utebird said:

Couple times, I think the majority of hurts big runs though have come on when he just runs out of the pocket on a pass not on a keeper on an RPO 

The point being though that hurts has the ability to get more yards in a rpo keep than Minshew just because hurts us a better runner.

Just like Sanders is more likely to hit a 40 yarder in a similarly blocked run over Howard because Sanders has breakaway ability where as Howard not so much, and at the same time Howard will more often take less negative plays than Sanders as well on similarly blocked plays.

Sure, it has happened a couple times... but let's not act like Foles didn't have his scampers!

 

And Minshew is far from a statue.  He's not Hurts, but he's not Tom Brady either. 

 

[mattwill]

7 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

What does that have to do with the price of tea in Texas?    The defense is the weakest link on the team.   Granted.  No one is arguing otherwise.  Anything more need to be said on the topic?   Doubtful.   So, let's move to the next question...

The posters in here have moaned over and over and over again that the team (1) can't beat the good teams, and (2) can't stop the better QBs. And it is a legitimate point ... one that they have not been able to put to the test.  I agree with you that the coaches have enough data points on Hurts.  The quality of opponents hasn't been an impediment to getting meaningful data on him the way it has been with getting meaningful data on the Defense.  So for me there is no "next question" and a Playoff game gives the coaches an opportunity to se what they have on Defense when that Defense is "stress tested." 

[greend]

54 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Do I mean nothing to you?

Lol , sorry bro

[Alphagrand]

4 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Couple times, I think the majority of hurts big runs though have come on when he just runs out of the pocket on a pass not on a keeper on an RPO 

The point being though that hurts has the ability to get more yards in a rpo keep than Minshew just because hurts is a better runner.

Just like Sanders is more likely to hit a 40 yarder in a similarly blocked run over Howard because Sanders has breakaway ability where as Howard not so much, and at the same time Howard will more often take less negative plays than Sanders as well on similarly blocked plays.

 

 

Can the Eagles run game be effective without Jalen Hurts?  Most likely

Can Jalen Hurts be effective without a run game?  Most likely not 

[Iggles_Phan]

2 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

This is true.  In 2021, this is also not a concept that any team besides the Ravens chooses to build their offense around.  We make it 2 teams.

 

That's not exactly helping them that much this year either... and it can be said that they have become more and more defensible each year since his MVP year in 2019.  14-2, then 11-5, not 8-7 and sitting on the outside of the playoffs right now.   Jackson's overall stats have also regressed.  Less TDs (both passing and rushing), more INTs, more sacks, and lower yards per rush attempt by Jackson.   

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

35 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Couple times, I think the majority of hurts big runs though have come on when he just runs out of the pocket on a pass not on a keeper on an RPO 

The point being though that hurts has the ability to get more yards in a rpo keep than Minshew just because hurts is a better runner.

Just like Sanders is more likely to hit a 40 yarder in a similarly blocked run over Howard because Sanders has breakaway ability where as Howard not so much, and at the same time Howard will more often take less negative plays than Sanders as well on similarly blocked plays.

 

 

I don’t disagree hurts helps the running game out. However if i put Justin herbert out there i think the running game would be fantastic as well.  teams would have to respect the vertical passing game more and that likely would open up big holes and not allow teams to bring guys into the box. (I think come playoffs teams will continue to not respect the passing game and try (probably fail) to shut down the run game and force us to throw.) Ultimately would allow for a great running game.

I just disagree with the notion that the running game is largely having the success it is cause of hurts. I think the running game would be good-great regardless unless our QB was completely useless like mike McMahon. i think different QBs whom aren’t considered running QBs and better passers could also have the success we are having now 

[Swoop]

You can't acknowledge Minshew played well or that the backs did just fine despite being beaten up. It was the Jets. Stop being a Minshew homer for a second.

You want to talk about a real gauntlet? How about Goff, Siemien, Bridgewater, Fromm, Covid football team. 

Now those were some really challenging opponents.

[aptosbird]

2 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

Can the Eagles run game be effective without Jalen Hurts?  Most likely

Can Jalen Hurts be effective without a run game?  Most likely not 

The Eagles offensive success is predicated on the effectiveness of the OL. That is the dependent variable.

[Iggles_Phan]

2 minutes ago, mattwill said:

The posters in here have moaned over and over and over again that the team (1) can't beat the good teams, and (2) can't stop the better QBs. And it is a legitimate point ... one that they have not been able to put to the test.  I agree with you that the coaches have enough data points on Hurts.  The quality of opponents hasn't been an impediment to getting meaningful data on him the way it has been with getting meaningful data on the Defense.  So for me there is no "next question" and a Playoff game gives the coaches an opportunity to se what they have on Defense when that Defense is "stress tested." 

And?  We've seen them stress tested... and they've given up 80% completions to those teams.  Not much more to be seen there, they need massive changes in personnel on the defensive side.  One game won't change that, even if they do look improved against a playoff opponent... and only give up 65%, or even 60%.  I want to see Minshew, and for the remainder of the season, not because of him, but because he would allow Sirianni to run his offense, which is all the more I need to see this year to feel that I have a sense for the team as a whole.

[Original Sin]

1 hour ago, 315Eagles said:

Anyone think the Jags will hire Doug?

Supposedly they interviewed him and Jim Caldwell so far.

Ask for permission to interview Lefwitch , both coordinators for the cowboy 

[greend]

57 minutes ago, RLC said:

My favorite part of this piece is when Nguyen off-hand criticizes Reagor's route running...which might have affected the play.

Since it's a paid site I will never know his analysis 

[Swoop]

It's been pretty much universally accepted that Foles can't be a starter in this league because he isn't good or consistent enough. Given that he had an amazing game and won us our only Super Bowl, by largely passing the ball, let's take a look: 

Sincerely, without being full of crap, how many of these throws could Hurts make? Three?

[Utebird]

12 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Sure, it has happened a couple times... but let's not act like Foles didn't have his scampers!

 

And Minshew is far from a statue.  He's not Hurts, but he's not Tom Brady either. 

 

Totally agree, you are making my point for me, whether it's foles or Minshew or hurts back there the DE on an RPO is coached to stay home because if he doesn't the QB can get chunk yards.

In highschool I didnt play DE but in film and practice all the coaches over and over were preaching to the DEs about contain and if you lost contain on a run whether you were a 3 year starter or a backup coach would pull you and out you in the bench and put in someone who could keep contain.

Hurts has the ability to make DEs pay for not staying home but so does any qb and like you say even slower guys like foles will make a DE pay.

I'm not buying the narrative that hurts makes the eagles run game go, eagles under foles with chip running a heavy RPO offense were a top rushing team, eagles with Wentz and slower Foles with heavy RPO offense top rushing team won a super bowl and now under Siri a heavy RPO offense had it's second highest run total with Minshew.

What's the one constant with all 3 teams, Stoutland and his O line.

[mattwill]

17 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

So, let's move to the next question... Is Hurts the long term answer?  Some want to say the jury is still out.  I believe no more information is required.  He's a fine backup QB, likely a plus backup QB, as a backup that can step in and beat a team with his legs is a nice benefit, as they likely won't have the timing with the WRs... (ironically, he's struggled with that all year, even though he's been the starter since Day 1 of OTAs).     I agree with all those points.

So, that brings us to the next question:  Sirianni's offense.  Is that good enough to build around long term?  And we don't know. I disagree.  I think we do know.

I believe we saw a pretty good idea of what Sirianni wants his offense to be early in the season, but Hurts failed to operate in that offense... so Sirianni changed his offense to maximize Hurts.  Good for him.  But, is that offense sufficient in today's NFL?  I don't think so.  And you and I disagree on that assessment.  I think it is.

So, why not find out how Sirianni's offense functions when they have a QB that is more capable of operating in it?  I think you are putting the cart before the horse.  They don't have that kind of QB on the roster at this point, so until they actually have such a QB, that "why not" question is little more than mental ****ion.

(That said, of course, Minshew is not the long term answer either... but another very good backup to have around.)   I'd like to see what Sirianni's offense actually is, and how it operates with a traditional QB at the helm.  I understand that desire, and when we have a QB that can do what you want a QB to do then your wishes will become reality, but that has nothing to do with the upcoming Playoffs. 

That is a data point worth exploring... but is one that cannot be delved into deeply while Hurts is the QB. Agreed And frankly, the Sirianni question is a greater one than the QB. I respectfully disagree. QBs come and go, QBs get injured... coaches are much more static when you find the right one... one that can actually be a foundation.  Early returns look favorable, but I'd like to look deeper than the surface. Understood and agreed.

See embedded comments in bold above.

[RememberTheKoy]

2 hours ago, downundermike said:

Actually this is false.  If you take away the Minshew game, and the defensive TD's, Eagles are not even top 10 in PPG since week 8.  I covered this extensively in the Jalen Hurts thread.

And as my post above proved, 75% of the time teams winning in the playoffs score 30+ PPG

 

Only one team in the NFL is averaging at least 30 PPG (Dallas) so I guess by your (il)logic they will be the only team that will be able to win a playoff game.