EMB Blog: 2022 Regular Season (and beyond?) - NO POLITICS

[Iggles_Phan]

1 minute ago, BigEFly said:

I don’t think there was a bobble, rather deliberate movement to secure the ball to the ground that he knew was coming.  Called a completed pass.  Not sure there was sufficient evidence to overturn.  Brilliant of Hurts and Shane to get the play off before Rivera threw the challenge flag.  Because of that alone, it is a catch.  Poor performance by Rivera.  His challenge flag technique was pretty bad. 

Agreed... but I think there was more evidence to overturn that way than the opposite had it been called incomplete.

 

Ultimately, what you reference at the end is the really important part for the Eagles moving forward.   The Eagles executed the quick snap well.  Rivera and the Washingteam were very slow in reacting and throwing the challenge flag.  Other teams will likely take note of that and throw the flag a little faster on a questionable call that favors the Eagles, and might end up draining a timeout from a team.   Long term, that whole exchange might benefit the Eagles.

[mattwill]

2 hours ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

He re-gathered the ball after this still, as the left foot was off the ground.  But clearly his right hand isn’t part of the possession and his left hand does not have it cradled.   Pretty obvious to everyone else but one stubborn poster who wants evidence to discount his "opinion”   

 

Last time I checked OBJ never touched the ball with his left hand during his circus catch.  I believe Smith is successfully gathering the ball in.  You believe otherwise.  I respect your opinion, but also don't agree with it.  It's a judgment call.

This is also a fun conversation.  I've enjoyed it.

[Iggles_Phan]

8 minutes ago, mattwill said:

I respectfully disagree.  Every successfully caught ball arrives at the receiver's hands with velocity, sometimes considerable velocity, which the receiver reduces down to zero in the process of making the catch.  The expressions "soft hands" and "hands of stone" exist because the best pass catchers know how to cradle the ball as it arrives with velocity and absorb that velocity.  The movement of the hands from picture 1 to picture 2 is, in my opinion, simply that cradling process at work.  Your opinion is different.  Reasonable people can agree to differ reasonably.  That is what 4for4 and you and I appear to be doing.  So far no scorpions, but it is early yet.  😂 

What you just described is the 'process' of gaining complete control.  The ball still rotating from the throw would indicate that the player catching it hasn't yet fully controlled it - again, contrasted against the catch by Clement in the Super Bowl, which was against his chest... this was out away from his body and he had limited control points on the ball.  The second picture, his right hand is completely off the ball.  The reverse angle shows the bobble more clearly to my eyes... the angle being tossed around here is just good for establishing whether or not the left foot was still on the ground or not at the point of the 'secure' point of the catch.  

Ultimately, it doesn't matter, as the call that was made is all that counts in the end.  And as I discussed with BigE... moving forward the full process of the questionable call, followed by the urgency to get the next play off before Rivera could challenge will stand as a cautionary tale to other teams in a similar situation.  They might need to throw it sooner than they wish to not allow that to happen to them... which might be a good thing as it might 'steal' a timeout from a team.  

 

Either way... catch or not... the Eagles dominated that game and that wasn't the margin of victory.

[we_gotta_believe]

2 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

What you just described is the 'process' of gaining complete control.  The ball still rotating from the throw would indicate that the player catching it hasn't yet fully controlled it - again, contrasted against the catch by Clement in the Super Bowl, which was against his chest... this was out away from his body and he had limited control points on the ball.  The second picture, his right hand is completely off the ball.  The reverse angle shows the bobble more clearly to my eyes... the angle being tossed around here is just good for establishing whether or not the left foot was still on the ground or not at the point of the 'secure' point of the catch.  

Ultimately, it doesn't matter, as the call that was made is all that counts in the end.  And as I discussed with BigE... moving forward the full process of the questionable call, followed by the urgency to get the next play off before Rivera could challenge will stand as a cautionary tale to other teams in a similar situation.  They might need to throw it sooner than they wish to not allow that to happen to them... which might be a good thing as it might 'steal' a timeout from a team.  

 

Either way... catch or not... the Eagles dominated that game and that wasn't the margin of victory.

Most (if not all?) teams have a system in place where the receivers will flash a signal to the QB after completing what they think is a questionable catch, to run hurry-up and get the next play called and snapped. 

[Guest justrelax]

3 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Agreed... but I think there was more evidence to overturn that way than the opposite had it been called incomplete.

 

Ultimately, what you reference at the end is the really important part for the Eagles moving forward.   The Eagles executed the quick snap well.  Rivera and the Washingteam were very slow in reacting and throwing the challenge flag.  Other teams will likely take note of that and throw the flag a little faster on a questionable call that favors the Eagles, and might end up draining a timeout from a team.   Long term, that whole exchange might benefit the Eagles.

It's a catch because it was ruled a catch. Rivera waited for one of his minions to tell him what the broadcast showed and he waited too long. That happens a lot. Coaches want to be told; they don't want to risk the challenge and lose it and a timeout. 

As far as the stills go, there's not enough there to make a firm decision one way or the other. It was not clear to me from video either.

That being the case, the ruling on the field should stand.

[HazletonEagle]

1 minute ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Most (if not all?) teams have a system in place where the receivers will flash a signal to the QB after completing what they think is a questionable catch, to run hurry-up and get the next play called and snapped. 

definitely not all teams. We had no such signal on my bowling team.

[RememberTheKoy]

Eagles should be #2 behind the Dolphins. 

[HazletonEagle]

Somebody give me a still of his lower leg hitting the ground. with the ball in his hands.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, RememberTheKoy said:

Eagles should be #2 behind the Dolphins. 

Jalen, always 2nd best to Tua

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

22 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

6 teams...   
I'd easily consider the Bills, Chiefs and Chargers ahead of the Eagles.  An argument could be made that the Dolphins' 3 wins were more 'quality' than the Eagles' 3 wins.  GB could be above the Eagles.  Bucs would be another to consider... until proven otherwise.  That's 6.  Putting the Eagles 7th.  

Power Rankings isn't the same as standings.  And it is all about the opinions of the authors.  Power Rankings are even less meaningful than the AP or Coaches Poll in the NCAA.  

I can see that.  

I’d argue the eagles are ahead of the chargers at the moment. Staley looked like an idiot on Sunday with his gameplan. both offensively and defensively. with herbert having cracked ribs they were down just 6 but had called 32 passes and just 8 rushes. They really never gave ekeler a chance to get going running the ball and getting into a rhythm. and you could see herbert was off all game. I thought they were fortunate to only be down 6 before it completely unraveled. his defense was awful in that game. For a coach who’s a defensive guy, they’ve been bad for much of the last year and 3 weeks he’s been the coach

I’d add losing slater for the year really hurts and bosa is going to miss significant time now with a groin injury. the injuries are beginning to pile up on the chargers. 

[mattwill]

26 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

The ball has to be secured, and then two feet.  If the securing and the feet happens simultaneously that's fine.  But if the feet are before the securing of the ball, then they don't count. 

Agreed.  And I consider the ball secured.  That is my opinion.  Your opinion is different.  I respect that.  I also think your statement below is an excellent assessment ... not enough evidence to clearly overturn, but also not enough evidence to clearly confirm.

28 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Of course not, which is why the reverse angle that the TV feed offered after the timeout was the more definitive look.  And to my eyes, the ball was clearly moving until after the left foot left the ground.  It never came back down in bounds.  Incomplete pass.  The call on the field is the determining factor on this one.  I will concede that it might have stood if challenged, because it was called a catch on the field.  However, had the initial call gone the other way, I don't see how if it had been ruled incomplete on the field that it could have been overturned if challenged.  Nothing conclusive to overturn an incomplete call.

 

[NCiggles]

44 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Yeah.  Animal on a wet road.  Sure, that's it.  

 

Same excuse given by every teenage driver that's been going too fast and ran off the road. 

[BigEFly]

9 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Agreed... but I think there was more evidence to overturn that way than the opposite had it been called incomplete.

 

Ultimately, what you reference at the end is the really important part for the Eagles moving forward.   The Eagles executed the quick snap well.  Rivera and the Washingteam were very slow in reacting and throwing the challenge flag.  Other teams will likely take note of that and throw the flag a little faster on a questionable call that favors the Eagles, and might end up draining a timeout from a team.   Long term, that whole exchange might benefit the Eagles.

I agree that if it was called incomplete, I doubt that would have been overturned either.  

I hate slow motion stop action instant replay and close ups.  Replay should be at game speed.  Refs aren’t infallible and disgust with referees is part of any game.

I like that Sirianni is constantly talking with the refs.  Some looks like idle chatting, a fair bit of clarification and some occasional challenges.  Because of the chatting and calm clarifications, when he gets loud and challenging, I think that works in his favor. 

[RememberTheKoy]

34 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

6 teams...   
I'd easily consider the Bills, Chiefs and Chargers ahead of the Eagles.  An argument could be made that the Dolphins' 3 wins were more 'quality' than the Eagles' 3 wins.  GB could be above the Eagles.  Bucs would be another to consider... until proven otherwise.  That's 6.  Putting the Eagles 7th.  

Power Rankings isn't the same as standings.  And it is all about the opinions of the authors.  Power Rankings are even less meaningful than the AP or Coaches Poll in the NCAA.  

I can see that.  

 

What is the argument for the Chargers being ahead of the Eagles? 1-2 and their only win of the year was close win over an 0-3 team.  Chargers are looking worse and worse with each passing week and accumulating serious injuries. 

[mattwill]

47 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

He DIDN'T HAVE POSESSION YOU FING .....!!!!  Watch the video.  Look at the still picture I shared which clearly showed no possession after his left foot was off the ground.  Holy F!  

 

- Scorpion

 

Everyone:  1+1=2

MattWill:  You have evidence?  

Three MBAs were in a bar and were asked "What does 2+2 equal?" 

The Harvard MBA, where Marketing is king, said, "4, but 3.95 would sell better." 

The Stanford MBA, where mergers and acquisitions and IPOs are king, said, "4, but when the synergies of the merger are realized it could be 5 or even 6." 

The Wharton MBA just smiled and said, "In accounting 2+2 can be anything you want it to be."

[Penn7980]

15 hours ago, FranklinFldEBUpper said:

Unprecedented since the new Covid-inspired rules regarding activating guys off the practice squad. In other words, there really isn't any long term precedent. This is all about that anyway, the activating off the PS thing I mean. They didn't need to promote Covey to the 53-man roster for three weeks since he was a "free" activation. But now that that clock has expired for him, they'll no doubt put him on the 53.

Not sure if Covey has earned his roster spot yet, based on his performance as a PS activation in 3 games.  In fact, he may get cut if he does not get promoted. 

Ward is a possibility but the comments here do not sound promising.  Guess if there is no better option, Ward could be a stand-in for this season.  Obviously, we can't expected a lot from him in terms of yardage and field position.  Just field the punts and not cough up the football are about all for him to do. 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

6 teams...   
I'd easily consider the Bills, Chiefs and Chargers ahead of the Eagles.  An argument could be made that the Dolphins' 3 wins were more 'quality' than the Eagles' 3 wins.  GB could be above the Eagles.  Bucs would be another to consider... until proven otherwise.  That's 6.  Putting the Eagles 7th.  

Power Rankings isn't the same as standings.  And it is all about the opinions of the authors.  Power Rankings are even less meaningful than the AP or Coaches Poll in the NCAA.  

 

4 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

What is the argument for the Chargers being ahead of the Eagles? 1-2 and their only win of the year was close win over an 0-3 team.  Chargers are looking worse and worse with each passing week and accumulating serious injuries. 

 

RTK only agrees with expert opinions when they align with his opinion.  

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, mattwill said:

Thre MBAs were in a bar and were asked "What does 2+2 equal?"  The Harvard MBA, where Marketing is king, said, "4, but 3.95 would sell better."  The Stanford MBA, where mergers and acquisitions and IPOs are king, said, "4, but when the synergies of the merger are realized it could be 5 or even 6."  The Wharton MBA just smiled and said, "In accounting 2+2 can be anything you want it to be."

OMG, quit being a homer, it was not a catch.

[Utebird]

3 minutes ago, downundermike said:

 

 

RTK only agrees with expert opinions when they align with his opinion.  

Still RTK makes a valid point, why would anyone rank the chargers over the eagles at this point???

Chargers just lost slater for the year, boss missing for a bit, Herbert banged up and they haven't really looked all that good.

Where as the eagles are healthy and last two games have looked dominant.

[HazletonEagle]

6 minutes ago, downundermike said:

OMG, quit being a homer, it was not a catch.

I wonder if the call is different if that was someone like Reagor. Does Smith have that respect from the refs yet where they assume he is capable of that difficult catch getting feet in? And would they have called it differently if it was just some guy?

Really though, live, it looked like a catch. 

[mattwill]

21 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

What you just described is the 'process' of gaining complete control.  The ball still rotating from the throw would indicate that the player catching it hasn't yet fully controlled it - again, contrasted against the catch by Clement in the Super Bowl, which was against his chest... this was out away from his body and he had limited control points on the ball.  The second picture, his right hand is completely off the ball.  The reverse angle shows the bobble more clearly to my eyes... the angle being tossed around here is just good for establishing whether or not the left foot was still on the ground or not at the point of the 'secure' point of the catch.  

Ultimately, it doesn't matter, as the call that was made is all that counts in the end.  And as I discussed with BigE... moving forward the full process of the questionable call, followed by the urgency to get the next play off before Rivera could challenge will stand as a cautionary tale to other teams in a similar situation.  They might need to throw it sooner than they wish to not allow that to happen to them... which might be a good thing as it might 'steal' a timeout from a team.  

 

Either way... catch or not... the Eagles dominated that game and that wasn't the margin of victory. 

I agree with everything you have said, with the key word being "complete."  Your comment in bold is spot on, and particularly relevant because 4for4's initialk argument was that the left foot had "left the building" before any catch was made.  He even provided the video as evidence of that fact. The word bobble never came into his argument. 

[NCiggles]

35 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

The ball has to be secured, and then two feet.  If the securing and the feet happens simultaneously that's fine.  But if the feet are before the securing of the ball, then they don't count.  

 

The Eagles were better than the Commanders in getting the next play called.  I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if the catch was or wasn't over turned in a replay.  The rule doesn't say secure it says control of the football. The rule specifies that movement of the ball doesn't mean that the player doesn't have control.   So if it was called a catch you would have to show that the movement showed a lack of control.  This is the rule:

 

ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) in the field of play, at the sideline, or in the end zone if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.

Notes: (1) Movement of the ball does not automatically result in loss of control

[Mike030270]

14 hours ago, Uscg-green said:

Anyone watched the Monday night game with the Manning's? Thinking about doing that one tonight. 

I like Peyton and Eli. A lot of the guests they bring on I don't care for

[HazletonEagle]

2 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

The Eagles were better than the Commanders in getting the next play called.  I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if the catch was or wasn't over turned in a replay.  The rule doesn't say secure it says control of the football. The rule specifies that movement of the ball doesn't mean that the player doesn't have control.   So if it was called a catch you would have to show that the movement showed a lack of control.  This is the rule:

 

ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) in the field of play, at the sideline, or in the end zone if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.

Notes: (1) Movement of the ball does not automatically result in loss of control

Yeah the interesting thing there is the interpretation of the balls movement. It looked less like a "bobble", and more like a deliberate repositioning/pulling it in. 

I still think he didnt really control it until after he pulled it in. But there is interpretation there.

[NCiggles]

7 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Still RTK makes a valid point, why would anyone rank the chargers over the eagles at this point???

Chargers just lost slater for the year, boss missing for a bit, Herbert banged up and they haven't really looked all that good.

Where as the eagles are healthy and last two games have looked dominant.

It's a fair question but I think the argument is that the Chargers weren't healthy and the loss to the Jaguars was the result of losing players, Keenan Allen not playing, it was a let down game given the game against the Chiefs the week before, and Hebert was playing after taking a pain killer because of his rib injury.  The argument against them is that all of those things should matter when considering which team may win on any given Sunday.